Talk:Micronation

Confederate States of America

Is Confederate States of America a micronation or amicrostate? No country recognized it. But it did have things few micronations have, like a legislature, army, etc. deisenbe (talk) 19:26, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

The Confederacy would be an unrecognised state, that de facto controlled some areas of the southern united states.AxderWraith Crimson (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Micronation is a 20th century concept, so I don't think the CSA can be considered as such. Also, while the CSA wasn't recognized as a sovereign state, it was recognized as a belligerent by the United Kingdom. pandakekok9 (talk) 09:10, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

It also wasn't a "micro" anything-- the Confederate States covered close to two million km² and were home to nine million people. PepperBeast (talk) 14:20, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

The CSA was a (failed) secession. Literally dozens of similar examples throughout history. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:10, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Notable micronations

What are the requirements to add or remove a micronation from the section "Notable micronations", because almost all of them are connected or associated with fraud or financial scam projects? Meanwhile there are micronations like Ladonia (art), Molossia and Atlantium (hobby), Flandrensis (ecologic) and many other projects? The section "Micronations based on historical claims" is more based on facts. I propose to remove the section and just keep the reference to the page List of micronations. Delle89 (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Personally I think listing micronations as examples of what a micronation can be as to cover the subject. Given their lowscale nature finding reliable sources on any of them besides self publishing, columns, local news, online articles, and the handful of books that might just be also self-publishing there isn't a lot to go on here. ScholarGray13 (talk) 02:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Micronation/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Fehufanga (talk · contribs) 05:54, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I'll be reviewing the article. This is my first GA review.

Thank you! I hope you learn a thing or two :) ツLunaEatsTuna (💬)— 21:28, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@LunaEatsTuna I have left some more comments. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 04:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@LunaEatsTuna Looks good! I will pass this. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 09:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Though I am a bit confused on where to categorize this under. I'd appreciate some help with that. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 09:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I really appreciate the review! I think Political parties and movements might suit it? ツLunaEatsTuna (💬)— 16:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Alright, looks good. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 22:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Prose

• Micronation as a word has no basis in international law - "International law" is a duplicate link.

• Removed.

• and George Cruickshank of the Empire of Atlantium - In both instances, "Empire of Atlantium" is a duplicate link.

• Removed both.

• an independent constitutional republic called New Atlantis - "New Atlantis" is a duplicate link.

• Removed.

• In 1964, writer Leicester Hemingway - "Leicester Hemingway" is a duplicate link.

• Removed.

• based his sovereignty on the Guano Islands Act of 1856 - "Guano Islands Act of 1856" is a duplicate link

• Removed.

• engage in intermicronational diplomacy - Diplomacy is a replink

• Removed.

• The study of micronationalism is known as micropatriology or micropatrology. - This doesn't seem like it fits in the section "Legality".

• You're right—removed.

• Several intermicronational organisations also exist - No need to link "organisations".

• Removed.

• delayed due to the COVID-19 pandemic - "COVID-19 pandemic" is a duplicate link

• Removed.

• held at Dangar Island, Sydney - "Dangar Island" and "Sydney" are duplicate links.

• Removed.

• "with many country pages [on MicroWiki] longer than those of real nations [on Wikipedia]," - Consider adding a ref for this quotation separately.

• Good idea; done.

• They claimed to be the princesses of the historical Sunda Empire - Change the Sunda Empire link (which is actually a link to the micronation), to Sunda Kingdom? I remember when this went viral here a few years ago.

• Changed. I have heard about this from some Indonesian micronationalists who locally call it the 2020 Indonesian micronations shock.

• and hosted by the Principality of Aigues-Mortes - "Principality of Aigues-Mortes" is a duplicate link.

• Removed.

• The documentary explored various micronations around the world, and included - The comma before "and" should be removed.

• Removed.

• off the coast of Scotland, and declared - The comma before "and" should be removed.

• Removed.

• various micronations around the world, and included - The comma before "and" should be removed.

• Removed.

• do not involve terra nullius, and are not subject - The comma before "and" should be removed.

• Removed.

• was founded in 2014, and is run - The comma before "and" should be removed.

• Removed.

• I noticed that the information about Hemingway's micronation in the section "Libertarian micronations and seasteading projects: 1964–1972" is repeated in the "Seasteading" section. The former section also has a hatnote that points to the latter.

• I have revamped the whole section; hopefully it looks better now?

References

• The reference L'État c'est moi: Histoire de... is not used anywhere.

• Nice catch! Moved to further reading.

• From a selection of references:
  • 24 and 25: In either sources, I cannot find 1966 as the date of new Atlantis' destruction
    • Added a source which states it was destroyed "within a few years" by a cyclone. No idea where I got 1966 from.
  • 28: Y
  • 42: Y
  • 47: Y
  • 94: Y
  • 111: Y
  • 118: Y
  • 131: This may be a better link, since it doesn't immediately open the print window.
    • Yep—added!
  • 157: Correct me if I am wrong, but this appears to be a self-published source?
    • Removed. Could not seem to find any RS sources mentioning the acronym.

Copyvio

• Quotation to Collins is cited. There are some unavoidable similarities to book titles, but besides that, no concerns.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• MicroCon 2022 Group Picture.webp

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:37, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 15:17, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that micronations lack the legal basis in international law for their existence? Source: source
  • ALT1: ... that in 1972 one micronation called itself the Republic of Minerva and built a small, artificial island on the Minerva Reefs by importing sand? Source: The Republic of Minerva was a libertarian project that succeeded in building a small, artificial island on the Minerva Reefs in 1972 by importing sand.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Paper House

Improved to Good Article status by LunaEatsTuna (talk). Nominated by Bruxton (talk) at 16:42, 20 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Micronation; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Recent GA, article long enough, hooks are good, though I would propose one more:

• ALT2: ... that micronations have claimed territory in Antarctica, in international waters, and in space?

Otherwise, hooks all cited and no copyvio detected. QPQ done, so good to go. Juxlos (talk) 15:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Juxlos that is a very interesting hook too! Bruxton (talk) 19:34, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Micronation | better sourcing

(Copied from User talk:Donald Albury

Hi, I'm fairly new to wikipedia and you critiqued my sourcing I was planning on editing/correcting them but before I do so I wanted to ask your advise on better citation, most relevantly on the Micronation page; I was hoping you could mentor me on this since my official Wikipedia mentor appears to be absent or inactive. For a few citation errors I can see I made for myself such as the wrong placement for the reference to the fictional country of Ruritania(I placed the reference next to the wrong Ruritania tag), but others are less clear such as Aynvaul being *listed* as attending MicroCon in 2017 where I cited a list of attending members. I see the issue with springer were it mentions them and their location as being a minute mention, but this one I feel would warrant just a mention if it is an attendance list? (correct me if I am wrong). As for the others you mentioned (full citation needed) that they need a more specific citation, these other ones are interviews by Vice and PBS(?) I imagine timestamped links instead of links to the interviews? Furthermore how would I be more specific for references that would satisfy the full citation for website references? -Thank you for your time! ScholarGray13 (talk) 16:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll start with some policies and guidelines. Everything in an article in Wikipedia must be verifiable from reliable sources. While that does not mean that everything has to have a citation, anything that is, or might be, challenged needs a citation from a reliable source. You did provide a number of sources, but, as you have seen, I questioned the reliability and/or usefulness of several of them. Arnold's book, Pseudo-States and Sovereign Citizens, and the MicroCon website for MicroCon 2017, each mention Aynvual just once, with no further information about the entity. I cannot find any mention of Aynvual in the webpage for the Robert College International Model United Nations. That source, by the way, is not, in my opinion, a reliable source, as it is a mock report produced by a high school-level Model United Nations.

For the second micronation, the Kingdom of Ruritania, you cited an article on historytoday.com that, as far as I could tell, does not mention the micronation, and so does not support any of the content you added to the article. Of the two Youtube videos, the first is from Vice News, and the community has judged that it can be reliable for news. I have no opinion as of yet of its usefulness for the content in this article. The second Youtube video appears to be self-sourced, and therefore not allowable as a source in Wikipedia. Finally, the molossia.org website only mentions the Kingdom of Ruritania as an attendee at MicroCon 2017, and provides no other information about it.

In a separate issue, citations that consist solely of a url are a problem. Wikipedia:Bare URLs are subject to link rot, and if something happens to the URL, it may not be possible to recover an archived version of the site that supports the content the citation was for. Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources for information on how create full citations for various types of sources. - Donald Albury 19:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, for Aynvaul I was citing those sources to support their existence and their location. The reason I cited MicroCon attendence is typically the ones that attend those are at least serious on their subject enough to spend the money on travel expenses for presentations. Didn't think I needed to cite more to support the claim of them being on the attendance list beyond their inclusion on the list. When I had the pleasure of interviewing some of them for a column I'm putting together for an article of my own (I'll be writing about local trivia and history such as the British forts here on Long Island) I learned a great deal that way. I have seen a flag of theirs once or twice on the road, I just assumed it was the flag of some African country before the interview.

Moving onto Ko_Ruritania the article for historytoday.com was misplaced and was for the fictional country from Hope's Prisoner of Zenda, that's my goof when I correct all these mistakes I intend to move it over (or should I do that immediately?). In regards to the first youtube video by Vice on the title card for the interview it states they are the Host of MicroCon as well as the location they are based out of, and the website I sourced also clearly states they are the host, quote "On 23, 24 and 25 June 2017 XL saw the advent the second major intermicronational get-together and conference, MicroCon 2017. Hosted this year by the Kingdom of Ruritania, MicroCon is a biennial meet-up of micronationalists from around the world." (I suppose maybe I should reference the exact line on the source so it is more clear?) Aynvaul is listed as an attending party but Ruritania was most definitely hosting that year's event. As for the second, I was looking at the quality, given the producer of the video and similar videos appears to be interviewing the individual micronationalists themselves and their official tables at MicroCon 2017.

On the separate issue, I most definitely will be taking a look at that, thank you for the advise and taking the time to answer my questions. If I may, may I ask you to be my mentor instead of my current one as you have been much more inciteful(you actually replied within a business week haha). I have two more questions.

-Should I fix the issues with these citations immediately as I can for them or should I fix them in one go later in the week?

-I added the entry as I felt it should be noted that micronations themselves vary, there was no mention that they can be a more titular and cultural entity without easily defined territory if any at all and needed to list some examples to justify this entry. Looking at it another time I'm wondering if the location of this entry could be better suited in another section after fixing the citation issues.

Again thank you for your time and quick responses! ScholarGray13 (talk) 05:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I would say to proceed in whatever way is comfortable for you. I cannot predict what other editors might do here, but you have stated your intentions and I hope other editors consider those. Donald Albury 12:38, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

alright, I will move the reference over to the correct one and review the suggestions you asked me to look at. Again thank you for the help and advice! :) ScholarGray13 (talk) 09:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

For Aynvaul I was able to find a recent publication from litmor (Syosset) news mentioning it to be more of a cultural identity that can be worked with. https://issuu.com/litmorpublishingcorp/docs/jer_07_12_24 see page 15. As for Ruritania: here is something that backs the micronation's location https://qz.com/1196022/photos-the-leaders-control-some-of-the-small-nations-in-the-world (see 6th image down by Matt Roth), https://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/probably-didnt-know-leaders-26-micronations-just-gathered-atlanta/ other than these I couldn't find much for additional links to the two. I'm wondering if I should be using an alternative example and use Ruritania as instead an example of a multigenerational micronation given Anastasia's daughters are particularly involved which is rare for these things. ScholarGray13 (talk) 23:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The column (which is what it appears to be) about Aynvual is not a very good source, and is subject to the conditions in WP:NEWSORG. Also pertinent is the policy at Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought, item No.2, Personal inventions, seeing that Aynvual was invented by a middle-schooler. As for the mentions of Ruritania in the other sources, all they establish is that someone claiming to represent a non-existent country attended a conference. I think you need to find much better sources about Ruritania. Donald Albury 01:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm a little confused on what you mean by original thought here and how personal invention might apply. Personal invention seems to apply to quote "you or a friend". I'm not 100% sure if related, but there is a Facebook group by the same name that that supports them being more cultural.

Speaking of personal thoughts, do you think the Washitaw might better fit the "cultural" category better? ScholarGray13 (talk) 09:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)