Talk:Lent

Removed "mortifying the flesh" and its unsuitable source from the lead

The "mortification of the flesh" described in the source is from a collection of fictional novellas written in the 1600s. The source is a work of literary theory and is suitable as a source for fictional literature written during the Spanish Golden Age. The source is not a history book and is not suitable as a reliable source on Lenten practices, historical or current. KinkyLipids (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Easter Triduum

How does it even belong in this article? It could - sourced - better go to Holy Week. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:09, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Agree 1.127.109.156 (talk) 10:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Saint Patrick's Day

I would remove Saint Patrick's Day from the list of feasts which fall in Lent for the following reasons: It only applies to a very small part of Catholics around the world. There are countless regional patron feasts some of which fall into Lent, but we should not oveload the article. On the other hand one could add the feast of Saint Joseph, which is observed by all Catholics and also always falls into Lent. – K​P​F​C​ 💬 11:30, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Catholic "precept" to abstain from sex

A reference has been provided which purports to show a Catholic "precept" to abstain from sex during Lent that was only lifted after the Franco regime was toppled. https://ruvid.org/ri-world/the-catholic-precept-of-not-having-sex-during-lent-was-maintained-until-the-end-of-the-franco-regime/ This is surprising to me, and I believe that such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary sourcing. This source is a study of fertility rates throughout certain years. They have not produced any Church documents, Canon Law, or bishops' decrees to this effect. I found another source which indicates that this abstinence was encouraged during the 14th and 15th centuries. But there was no such universal law. Perhaps pious Spaniards simply viewed it as a good practice to abstain from such a licit activity. More sources are needed before we can assert this in Wikipedia's voice. Elizium23 (talk) 22:22, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Elizium23, thanks for your comment. The source says what it says. However, feel free to reword the statement in light of the reference that you found. I can further redact it if necessary. It's nice to see you back after a short break. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 22:34, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I will try to reword the sentence myself and you can let me know how you feel about it. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 22:36, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Anupam, it's a good start; since we only have the one source saying this, I would use WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV rather than saying it in our own voice. What do you think? Elizium23 (talk) 22:45, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Feel free to add in the attribution User:Elizium23. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 22:48, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

"Reformed Churches"

User:Anupam, I see you restored a parenthetical after the term "Reformed Churches"--"(Continental Reformed, Presbyterian and Congregationalist)." I agree that it can't hurt to clarify what churches are in view here. In context, though, I can't tell whether this parenthetical is defining which churches are in the Reformed tradition, or which of the Reformed churches typically celebrate Lent. Could you please give me a sense of what you had in mind here so we can clarify? Also, I think if this is meant to define which churches are Reformed, it would be a good idea to include Reformed Baptists. Alternatively, if it's about which Reformed churches practice Lent, then we should probably be careful to distinguish that the Presbyterian world contains churches that celebrate Lent and those that do not impose it.

Those were the two reasons I removed the parentheticals previously, by the way.

Wobblygriswold (talk) 02:09, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

User:Wobblygriswold, you already clarified "those of the Reformed Churches...that observe Lent". The Reformed tradition consists of the Continental Reformed, Presbyterian, and Congregationalist traditions. As such, it is necessary to list them. I understand that not all congregations in these traditions may observe Lent, but that is why your addition of "that observe Lent" is sufficient. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 02:13, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

That is helpful, yes--so it sounds like the parenthetical is defining "Reformed," not listing the Reformed churches that practice Lent. My concern then is that the way the parenthetical is written is confusing in context. It could be read to mean that not all Reformed denominations observe Lent, but Continental Reformed, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists do observe it. Rather than define the term in passing--which seems unnecessary, since we're not also sub-defining "Congregationalist," for example--why not just let the link do the work of defining "Reformed," as is the case with so many terms on this page? Wobblygriswold (talk) 02:28, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

User:Wobblygriswold, for you and I, that would seem like a decent solution. However, most of our readers on Wikipedia wouldn't know what the "Reformed" tradition encompasses and so the parenthetical helps define it; what is more confusing is that our article for Reformed Christianity is just titled "Calvinism". There might be a good number of individuals for example, who are Presbyterians, who might be curious as to what their church does (or lack thereof) for Lent and this article would help them find what they are looking for. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 02:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Granted, but take a look, for example, at the wording here:

"Some . . . Reformed (including the Continental Reformed, Presbyterian and Congregationalist traditions) . . . churches also observe Lent[.]"

I think that a user reading that would probably interpret it to mean that Presbyterian churches celebrate Lent, across the board. That is how I'd interpret it if I didn't know anything about the subject, anyway. If you feel strongly that it's necessary to parenthetically define Reformed, I think a good way to handle this would be:

"Some Anabaptist, Baptist, Reformed (including some Continental Reformed, Presbyterian, and Congregationalist churches), and nondenominational Christian churches also observe Lent, although many if not most churches in these traditions do not observe Lent."

That seems to spell out who's Reformed without making it sound like Lent is the uniform practice for Presbyterians, Congregationalists, etc. Thoughts? Wobblygriswold (talk) 02:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

To be clear, the quote with the ellipsis is the parenthetical from the first paragraph. Wobblygriswold (talk) 02:39, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

User:Wobblygriswold, since we've already used the word "some" in the same sentence, I suggest that we use the would "certain" before the word "Continetal Reformed" in the parenthetical. What are your thoughts? I look forward to hearing from you. With regards, Anupam^Talk 02:47, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

That makes sense to me, yes, and does sound better. I'll implement. Thanks! Wobblygriswold (talk) 02:49, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome! I appreciate that you were very agreeable and patient in this discussion. Have a great evening! With regards, Anupam^Talk 04:07, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

English variant

The WP:ENGVAR at this point seems unclear. There's a mix of British and American English. There are no particular WP:TIES to either one, so we'll probably go with "earliest variant wins". This is an old article. Any suggestions? Elizium23 (talk) 00:31, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Translations removed

There is no need here for translations of the word. This is WP:DICTDEF territory, and this is the English Wikipedia. The translations are served by the interwiki links already here. Elizium23 (talk) 20:49, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Fasting for Lack of Food

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that Lent, meaning Spring, was the season when, in an agricultural society, the foods which had sustained the people during winter were beginning to run out, but had not yet been restocked from new growth. Accordingly, fasting, and only eating once a day, would have been a simple necessity. Perishable foods, and especially meats, would have been consumed in their residual quantities as the final jolly before the season of austerity; whence carne vale, "Goodbye, meat!"

The long month of mourning for Christ's sojourn in the desert, surmounted by the despair and joy of Holy Week, merely happened to fit what would have happened anyway, even had there been no religious or Scriptural context to conform with it.

Nuttyskin (talk) 17:31, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

@Nuttyskin, there needs to be a relevant source for this, not just a private observation. It might be relevant but could also just be a coincidence. Or maybe an explanation we haven't thought of. WP:V applies here as always. Peter ^Isotalo 07:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The fact that the pagan festival of Eostre was already in place, before being ousted by a Christian Easter, would indicate a time of something significant; and the Christian Easter itself was erected on the basis of the Jewish Passover, which scholars have determined was originally associated with the barley harvest, it being a festival of abundance. On the other hand, an absence of something is rarely commemorated: we only know the Romans celebrated no feast days during the two-month-long gap in the middle of their calendar, because it was remarked upon by writers when July and August were created, displacing the numerical order of September, October, etc. A decision to abstain from meat as well as other foods, and to fast generally, so as to be in sympathy with the period of austerity Christ endured in the wilderness: that may explain such abstemiousness in a religious community, but not in wider society. The only explanation there can be is because of the general absence of nourishment; as occurs under the extreme occasions of famine, which admittedly is never anticipated and so cannot be prepared for. Not to report that in connection with the meaning of Lenten austerity is to rob the article of some of its value.

Nuttyskin (talk) 13:15, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, but that's not a source. If you have one, please present it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Dates in Infobox

The dates are a mess in the Infobox. Instead of stating the full range for each group, only the respective commencement dates should be stated for the Western and Eastern traditions in light of the Calendar issue.

The only difference between the RC & Anglican Lent's end dates is a technical difference over whether Good Friday counts as part of Lent or not. The box would be much easier to view without the end dates. 1.127.109.156 (talk) 10:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)