Talk:B. R. Ambedkar

Request for comment on infobox image change

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is unanimous consensus that File:Colorised Ambedkar.png should not be used, and that the current image (File:Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar.jpg) should remain. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 16:18, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

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The present image may not be the best image we have of Ambedkar. It is unusually close-up for a portrait and is of side profile. If we agree to change the image, then this I feel is a good candidate. Consider taking part in the consensus.

This is a colorised image out of a public domain image that was already available on Commons. I don't know if this info is important but the colourisation happened online from the website https://hotpot.ai/

Appu (talk) 16:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose (Summoned by bot) – The relevant pages here are: Wikipedia:Image use policy (in particular, WP:IMGCONTENT), and the guideline Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images (especially MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE), and ideally any decision to keep or change the image should be based on them. I don't agree with the description above that the current image is a side profile (it's more like 3/4). The fact that the proposed image has been artificially manipulated means it may not represent reality but a colorising editor's preference. Based on MOS:LEADIMAGE which says, "Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic" and the fact that the colorised image is not natural, I oppose changing the image. (Even if it were not colorised, I would still oppose the change, as I believe the current image is a better quality representation.) Mathglot (talk) 20:17, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

  Appu, just a procedural note: this Rfc lacks an Rfc question at the top. Please read WP:RFCBEFORE about preparing for an Rfc, and WP:RFCNEUTRAL about writing the Rfc question. In my opinion, the Rfc should start with a simple question, such as: "Should the current image of Ambedkar at the top of the article be replaced with File:Colorised Ambedkar.png?". Your argumentation in favor of one position or the other goes in a separate comment beneath the neutral statement that opens the Rfc, usually as a bullet item and the word Support or Oppose in bold font. Don't worry, you're still pretty new and you can't be expected to know everything right away, but just try to keep it in mind for next time. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:30, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose (Summoned by bot) – @Appu: In addition to above concerns, which I share to some degree, can you please provide evidence that the photo is licensed under a compatible license? The source image is public domain, but colourisation by hotpot.ai is likely to be a transformative work, which would put the colourised version under new term of copyright. Based on an (admittedly) casual look at the service's website, I was unable to ascertain that images produced by the service are licensed under a compatible license. Melmann 21:40, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

  Melmann, good point. I added a question about this at Commons:Village pump/Copyright. Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose (Summoned by bot) apart from any copyright issues which MAY apply, it's a poor image and inferior to the current B+W photo. Pincrete (talk) 05:49, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - Current image is fine. I really don't see any reason to change it, especially with a picture that doesn't actually look as good as the current one. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:37, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - Okay with the current image. Sea Ane (talk) 18:05, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - Current image is way better. Peter Ormond 💬 15:24, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name

Wouldn't be correct transcription of the name Bhimrav … ? Regards, —Mykhal (talk) 05:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

No wt are saying aa.. 2409:4071:4D42:EDC1:8401:CBF3:9AD2:84E4 (talk) 01:52, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Request for change in IPA transliteration of 'Babasaheb'

The IPA transliteration given for Babasaheb is incorrect. The word is written in Marathi as well as Sanskrit as बाबासाहेब, which when converted to Latin script through ISO 15919, results in 'Bābāsāheb', and when compared with Help:IPA/Sanskrit, gives the correct IPA transliteration as [baːbaːsaːɦeb].

Therefore I request that [bʌbəsɑheb] be changed to [baːbaːsaːɦeb]. Thank you SomePacifisticGuy (talk) 11:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Central Provinces

@Fowler&fowler: The text of the article says: Ambedkar was born on 14 April 1891 in the town and military cantonment of Mhow (now officially known as Dr Ambedkar Nagar) in the Central Provinces (now in Madhya Pradesh).

References

The source cited for this does not mention that it was in Central Provinces. The source says: Bhim Rao Ambedkar was born on April 14, 1891 in Mhow, a garrison town close to Indore–the capital of a princely state of the same name which was to be incorporated into the province of Madhya Bharat (contemporary Madhya Pradesh) after independence. Please can you make a suitable correction.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:21, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

The latter is correct, but sidesteps the Central India Agency question. Indore State was a part of the Central India Agency, commonly just called "Central India," just as Jaipur State was a part of Rajputana Agency, commonly called "Rajputana," or Porbandar a part of Kathiawar Agency; all the "Agencies" were groupings of princely states, which the British oversaw with residents. "Madhya Bharata" was the name given to Central India during the period of the Dominion of India (from 1947 to 1950, and probably for some time thereafter until Madhya Pradesh came into being which incorporated both Central Provinces and Central India and maybe a few other small political units. You may view its map in Dominion_of_India#Dominion_Constitution_and_Government. Mhow on the other hand was a British garrison town in a princely state. I'll check if it had any independent existence outside of CIA; if it did, it might explain why Jaffrelot is resorting to that circumlocution. Thank you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:44, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

The Census of India, 1891, the year Ambedkar's birth, mentions Central India and Mhow in paragraphs 14 and 15 in volume 1, Intro, published 1890, page 177. This is not a reliable source but gives a feel for that time, at least in the official document. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:11, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

And the enumeration, published 1892, says on page 22], that Mhow (cantonment), Indore State, Central India, increased in population by 4.5K from the previous census of 1881. I wonder if baby Bhimrao was counted in it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:17, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

I see, (I was going to remove that [Central Provinces] though went per article body) but agencies have not been added in infoboxes and with other details such as district et al are just WP:OVERLINKING (all of which were recently added). Reduced them from infobox per MOS and removed the mention of Province from body. Gotitbro (talk) 04:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2022

Add the category "Category:Marathi people" as Dr. BR Ambedkar had Marathi heritage as mentioned in article GujaratiHistoryinDNA (talk) 00:23, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done--Krutarth (talk) 01:52, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 March 2022

He was a social reformer ,activist 117.215.149.37 (talk) 13:04, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:15, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

School segregation

In early life section, it says They were not allowed to sit inside the class. In his book Waiting for Visa, he says For instance, I knew that in the school I could not sit in the midst of my class students according to my rank but that I was to sit in a corner by myself. This suggests that he was allowed inside the class but had to sit in corner.

Either the sentence can be removed, since the line before it mentions untouchable children were segregated, or rewritten that Ambedkar was made sit in corner by himself.--Krutarth (talk) 17:30, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

He's been hagiographed to death and unlike Gandhi he was a grandiose figure; it is hard to know what the truth was. He was after all the recipient of an elite education (Elphinstone Bombay, Columbia, LSE); the discrimination was very likely not so extreme as have deprived him of an education altogether which was the case with most Dalits, even the very talented ones. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:15, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

But, regardless, being a Dalit in late 19th-century early 20th-century India, he had to have experienced discrimination, perhaps even a more humiliating kind than one of merely having sit outside the classroom. Dalits are still discriminated against in manifold ways. Will look for sources. Thanks for posting. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:56, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 March 2022

Change "literary translation" to "literal translation" in the intro. Jānis Barbans (talk) 17:05, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. I don't see that prose in this article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:12, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 April 2022

Under the section about the LSE, could we add a link to his LSE student file, which you can freely download from here? https://www.lse.ac.uk/library/assets/documents/Ambedkars-LSE-student-file.pdf That PDF link is presented on this page, in case that is a better link https://www.lse.ac.uk/library/whats-on/exhibitions/educate-agitate-organise — Preceding unsigned comment added by Politicscurator (talk • contribs) 09:25, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Politicscurator: We can't really add it to the article main body, as it is a primary source. I am delighted to add it to the external links. I read much of that file and was impressed by how highly his professors rated him. A man of considerable genius he certainly was, one in a million. Thank you for posting this and for the link. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:57, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Wonderful, thank you! Politicscurator (talk) 09:58, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 April 2022

Bharataratn Dr. B. R. Ambedkar Mr. Jyoshil (talk) 17:42, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Instead of B. R. Ambedkar use Bharataratn Dr. B. R. Ambedkar Mr. Jyoshil (talk) 17:44, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: We don't use titles in article names. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:52, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 October 2022

The local description of this page is Former minister of law and justic in india But it should be 'The Father of Indian Constitution'. Please do this change. Shreyas143 (talk) 01:49, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

The Greatest Indian Shreyas143 (talk) 01:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:01, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 April 2023

Babasaheb Dr. B.R. Ambedkar did not get his surname from a Marathi Brahmin Teacher whose surname was Ambedkar. There is evidence for proving that. Babasaheb got his surname from his village's name.Babasaheb Dr.B.R. Ambedkar's elder brother Bala also had this surname which is mentioned in the official documents. so, please remove this error of information from the Wikipedia Dr. B.R. Ambedkar's page's Early life Part. This can lead to a controversy also because it is fake information that is present on that Wikipedia page.So, change the information that Babasaheb Dr. b.R. Ambedkar got his surname Ambedkar from a Marathi Brahmin Teacher whose surname was Ambedkar to the information that Babasaheb Dr. B.R. Ambedkar got his surname Ambedkar from his village's name "Ambadawe". 43.231.55.155 (talk) 06:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources for confirming this information? Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 06:48, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 April 2023 (3)

Babasaheb Dr. B.R. Ambedkar did not get his surname from a Marathi Brahmin Teacher whose surname was Ambedkar. There is evidence for proving that. Babasaheb got his surname from his village's name.Babasaheb Dr.B.R. Ambedkar's elder brother Bala also had this surname which is mentioned in the official documents. so, please remove this error of information from the Wikipedia Dr. B.R. Ambedkar's page's Early life Part. This can lead to a controversy also because it is fake information that is present on that Wikipedia page. The change should be done from Wikipedia page named Dr. B.R. Ambedkar's Early life Part. Please change "His Marathi Brahmin teacher, Krishnaji Keshav Ambedkar, changed his surname from 'Ambadawekar' to his own surname 'Ambedkar' in school records" to "His original surname was Sakpal but his father registered his name as Ambadawekar in school, meaning he comes from his native village 'Ambadawe' in Ratnagiri district." 43.231.55.155 (talk) 06:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lightoil (talk) 08:24, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 May 2023

please add a link to an article on Mooknayak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooknayak sumedhdmankar (talk) 16:14, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: The Mooknayak article needs some substantial work; until it's clear that it's notable as a separate subject from B.R. Ambedkar, linking it may not make sense. Lizthegrey (talk) 17:47, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Mooknayak is a newspaper started by B. R. Ambedkar in 1920. Mooknayak is B. R. Ambedkar's own newspaper. then how it is not notable.

Ref 1

Ref 2

Ref 3 sumedhdmankar (talk) 19:21, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Added wikilink. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 19:24, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much sumedhdmankar (talk) 19:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 June 2023

Change

""On 25 November 1949, Ambedkar in his concluding speech in constituent assembly said:[74]

"The credit that is given to me does not really belong to me. It belongs partly to Sir B.N. Rau the Constitutional Advisor to the Constituent Assembly who prepared a rough draft of the Constitution for the consideration of the Drafting Committee."

To

“…however good a Constitution may be, it is sure to turn out bad because those who are called to work it, happen to be a bad lot. However bad a Constitution may be, it may turn out to be good if those who are called to work it, happen to be a good lot.

…The Constitution can provide only the organs of State such as the Legislature, the Executive and the Judiciary. The factors on which the working of those organs of the State depends are the people and the political parties they will set up as their instruments to carry out their wishes and their politics.”" Ericbana19sdk (talk) 14:46, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

seems like this page is a deliberate attempt at misrepresenting and dismissing Ambedkar of his achievements. The most important part is omitted while the most popular tweets by idiots are taken as references. This is not only not intellectual honesty, but intellectual suicide. Ericbana19sdk (talk) 14:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done No reason provided to replace the verified quotation. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 17:22, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Have already given the reason. The quote misreprents Ambedkar's position as the top Constitution authority and influence. His comment is only partial and not full. Why is only that part which he credits his team and BN Rau prominently displayed and not the whole quote, which is much more contextual is helpful?

Again a very sad and deliberate mischief. 103.76.57.20 (talk) 14:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

@103.76.57.20 Dr b r ambedkar born in Maharashtra 45.252.73.140 (talk) 05:07, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Heading is Wrong.

The heading written is wrong. So please take note of that it's not only B.R.Ambedkar but it is Dr.B.R.Ambedkar. Because Man's reputation is considered by its Educations. And we Indians inspired from Dr.B.R.Ambedkar through his Education. So I hope you can change the heading in correct manner. Thank you. 112.79.73.64 (talk) 09:22, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Please see MOS:DOC. Rasnaboy (talk) 14:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 December 2023

Religion - Hindu Atheist Rebel (talk) 10:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 10:34, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

removing Barrister-at-Law

@GuardianH: hello.

Looking at your edits, it looks like you are deliberately omitting the mention of Ambedkar's barrister degree, why? Your edits - 6 August 2023 and 22 January 2024.

In 1922, Ambedkar was called to the bar and became a "barrister-at-law". source. 2409:4042:806:ACAA:38B2:7060:FC8B:DDE4 (talk) 16:21, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

He was called to the bar there, but did not earn a degree as you mentioned. GuardianH (talk) 16:25, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Isn't Grays Inn Ambedkar's alma matter as you deleted? Is Barrister-at-Law a degree? 2409:4042:806:ACAA:927:3ABE:CF77:6CD4 (talk) 20:18, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

It's a little different in the UK. They may study there, but being called to the bar does not mean earning a degree. A Barrister-at-Law is a profession, not a degree. GuardianH (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

OK. But Ambedkar studied law at Gray's Inn, and that should be mentioned in the article's infobox, along with Columbia University and LSE. 2409:4042:806:ACAA:ADD4:7751:95CC:297A (talk) 10:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that the Inns of Court are not usually displayed in the infobox, unless the subject spent more than the usual amount of time there. It's more like gaining an accreditation there rather than receiving a formal education. When I added it to the infobox originally, I thought it might add some value, but it just extends this rather long infobox. GuardianH (talk) 18:29, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Who helped in 1952

You should mention which party elected ambedkar as rajiyasabha member. Jana santha parent party of bjp. HariHaran Honest (talk) 23:59, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 March 2024

The Two tallest statues of B. R. Ambedkar must be included in the article

On 14 April 2023, a 125 feet tall statue of Ambedkar was installed in Hyderabad city of Telangana, which is situated on a 50 feet high base building. On January 19, 2024, a 125 feet tall "Statue of Social Justice" of Ambedkar was installed in Vijayawada, Andhra Pradesh, which stands on an 81 feet high platform. The Ambedkar statues in Hyderabad and Vijayawada are the fifth and fourth tallest statues in India respectively. In May 2026, a 450 feet tall "Statue of Equality" of Babasaheb Ambedkar will be ready at Indu Mill in Mumbai, which will be the second tallest statue in India and the third tallest in the world.

206 feet tall Statue of Social Justice in Vijayawada, Andhra Pradesh

175 feet Ambedkar Statue in Hyderabad, Telangana

2409:4042:271D:9BCF:21A6:B070:3299:6E01 (talk) 09:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll see if I might be able to incorporate this somehow. GuardianH (talk) 22:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

@GuardianH: Any update on this? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

•  Done. Capitals00 (talk) 17:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Capitals00:, Thank you for adding the information about the statue in Vijayawada to the article.

Looks like you didn't add the Hyderabad statue information on the talk page into the main article. The article already has some information about the Hyderabad statue, but it is insufficient. The article does not mention the height of the statue, nor the height of its base. Also wiki linking is not done.

The article should also have photos of both the Ambedkar statues in Hyderabad and Vijayawada. Please think positive.

@GuardianH:

157.33.222.253 (talk) 20:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

References

When was B R Ambedkar awarded with Yugpurush

Italic 103.183.90.156 (talk) 07:49, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done It is unclear what you want done. Peaceray (talk) 20:47, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Social

Br ambedkar biography 2409:4070:478C:B7C2:D9F1:5E52:F5B1:3A0D (talk) 15:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 June 2024

"We should remove the whole paragraph where Indira, the wife of jagjivan Ram mentioned that ambedkar persuaded jagjivan Ram to talk to Mahatma Gandhi for the giving him a post in a cabinet of Nehru ministry. It has no any valid evident it's just a personal view even jagjivan Ram never mentioned that. We all know how ideologically both Ambedkar and jagjivan Ram are different poles apart." Callmehelper (talk) 10:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done. It is accurately attributed and reliably sourced. Ratnahastin (talk) 02:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 August 2024

• Gandhi vs Ambedkar- Poona Pact on separate constituencies for Dalits related articles

Meesevawarangal.in (talk) 04:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 August 2024

This articles states that Ambedkar's book Pakistan or The Partition of India was published in 1945. This is an error. It was published in 1940 and later republished in 1945 and 1946. In the Works section of the article there is text which states "Pakistan or The Partition of India (1945)." Please change (1945) to (1940). My source is this PDF of the book provided by the Ministry of External Affairs of the Government of India https://www.mea.gov.in/Images/attach/amb/Volume_08.pdf ArmenTheQuoteGuy (talk) 08:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

In WorldCat, the 1946 edition of Pakistan or The Partition of India seems to be consistently listed as the 3rd edition, but there is no listing for the first edition:

• https://search.worldcat.org/formats-editions/78265520?limit=10&offset=1&orderBy=publicationDateAsc

I did find listings for the 1945 edition as the 2nd edition:

• https://search.worldcat.org/formats-editions/4919436?limit=10&offset=1&orderBy=publicationDateAsc

Is it possible that the title of the book was originally Thoughts on Pakistan? That was published in 1941.

• https://search.worldcat.org/formats-editions/863633176?limit=10&offset=1&orderBy=publicationDateAsc

Peaceray (talk) 16:22, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

This seems to confirm the first publication & change in title:

• Tejani, Shabnum (2013). "The Necessary Conditions for Democracy: B R Ambedkar on Nationalism, Minorities and Pakistan". Economic and Political Weekly. 48 (50). Economic and Political Weekly: 111–119. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 24479052. Retrieved 2024-08-03. In Pakistan or the Partition of India, originally published as Thoughts on Pakistan in 1941, a year after the Lahore Resolution or the so-called 'Pakistan demand', Ambedkar considered at length what made a nation.

Peaceray (talk) 18:13, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done I added the edition where applicable. Here are the gist of the changes that I made:

*Pakistan or The Partition of India (1945), originally published as Thoughts on Pakistan (1941)

Note that there is a copyright discrepancy at archive.org/details/pakistanorthepar035378mbp/page/n7/mode/2up & archive.org/details/thoughtsonpakist035271mbp/page/n5/mode/2up. I chose to go with the copyright of the first edition from the first edition. Peaceray (talk) 19:11, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 September 2024

https://www.ambedkaritetoday.com/2019/12/the-name-ambedkar-was-not-given-by-brahmin-teacher.html/amp 122.172.84.11 (talk) 17:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done First, the ambedkaritetoday.com hardly appears to be a neutral source. Second, as the credit at the bottom indicates, Editors Note – This Article was appeared first on QUORA written by Shekhar Bodhakar a anti caste activist. As WP:QUORA indicates, Quora is a Q&A site. As an Internet forum, it is a self-published source that incorporates user-generated content, and is considered generally unreliable. Peaceray (talk) 20:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)