Talk:The Holocaust

Sephardic and Mizrahi Jewish victims in the holocaust

There were also Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews who were sent to concentration camps by the Nazis. For example, greek Jews, Lybian Jews and Italian Jews. It is worth to correct the opening statement in this article stating that the holocaust in the genocide of European Jews. 2A06:C701:4D27:3500:1CE4:442C:6349:35F3 (talk) 18:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Most Holocaust scholars do not regard the fates of Jews outside of continental Europe as being part of the Holocaust, though some do and there has been a trend among scholars to do so as the years have gone on—maybe an acknowledgement of that controversy is due in the lead. In general, this article could do with more historiography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 01:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2024

At the first line of the basic definition of the Holocaust, I would like to add 'Slavs, especially the Polish' to the list of groups that were targeted by the Holocaust. Obviously, the Jews weren't the only ones getting persecuted, and to glance over the fact that about 2 million Poles were killed is offensive. TheRealNeurologix (talk) 16:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: see faq #2 Cannolis (talk) 09:10, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

(Let me preface by saying that lovely Jewish friends and influences have been and are important to me.  Zionism is distinct from Judaism.  None of this is to diminish the disgrace of the Nazis’ targeting of Jewish people.  However, the Nazis were supremacists, and supremacists will target any that are outside their group.  It therefore follows that the Nazis would likely target many other than Jewish people, and they did.  Those murders deserve to be acknowledged, and those murders do not deserved to have the memory of them suppressed by restriction of the only available and commonly-understood word {Holocaust} so as to deny it to them.)

This is a question that relates to issues of multiple pages.  

To the post below ____ at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Holocaust at the note:

“Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2024 At the first line of the basic definition of the Holocaust, I would like to add 'Slavs, especially the Polish' to the list of groups that were targeted by the Holocaust. Obviously, the Jews weren't the only ones getting persecuted, and to glance over the fact that about 2 million Poles were killed is offensive. TheRealNeurologix (talk) 16:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply] {{ [WIK note] This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.}}"

I agree.   It takes a good bit of digging to find the page <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims>.  It should not take any digging, it should be part of the definition, and should be listed under Holocaust, with all affected subgroups having their own pages as would be useful titled such as “Nazi Holocaust against the [name] people”.  

Type in <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_genocide> and you get a page that DOES NOT EVEN MENTION THE NON-JEWISH VICTIMS.   Explain to me please how that is acceptable.  Obviously the Jewish victims were central in the Nazis’ warped corrupt policy.  But there were about 18million killed by the Nazis’ policies against non-Aryan people, of which 17,000,000 - 6,000,000 = 11,000,000 were non-Jewish.  Do they really deserve to be forgotten?  

The reservation of the word Holocaust — to many signifying the Nazi targeting-for-extermination of any of the groups it declared objectionable — to only Jewish victims would be fine if there were a general word for the Nazi extermination intent and program.  

But no such word is offered.  

Therefore, such reservation of the word Holocaust unfairly relegates the murders of  Slav and Sinti-Romani to some other difficult-to-find place to which not even a pointer is supplied.  

The complete fact of Nazi genocide must be acknowledged, and information about it pointed to.  To do otherwise is to put this page into political service of Zionism.    

The note (b) under Holocaust "...  Engel 2021, p. 6,

- "Echoing this view, some have contended that the expression 'the Holocaust' ought to refer not only to the encounter between the Third Reich and the Jews but also to 'the horrors that Poles, other Slavs, and Gypsies endured at the hands of the Nazis' (Lukas, 1986: 220)…” -  

… illustrates this.

If the word “HOLOCAUST" is to be reserved exclusively to Jewish victims (which I agree/think were the identity suffering the most from the Holocaust), then that Decision risks denying_the_holocaust of the Roma/Sinti, Slavs, and others. And THAT (Roma, Slav, etc.) information is quite tedious to find in Wikipedia (it OUGHT TO BE linked right next to any exclusivist definition of “Holocaust”). The EFFECT then is that reserving the word "Holocaust" to only the Jewish victims is political: it thus lends itself _the_more_ to service of Zionism (and yes, sure, the page is not about Zionism, and I agree it should Not be, but if this definition prevails without an inclusive term offered alongside to replace the Universal meaning of Holocaust then the page becomes exclusivist and in service to Zionism).

There exists a page called "Romani Holocaust" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_Holocaust.   I.e. it is also a ‘Holocaust’ page.

This current page “The Holocaust” page should likewise  be called “Jewish Holocaust”_* and there should be a “Nazi Holocaust (also see _*)” page listing the Nazi Holocaust in entire with links to specific pages.  

This page should be called “Jewish Holocaust, the Shoah”.

_* Generally, and contrary to the naming convention like “Romani Holocaust": clear terminology should express “A’s campaign regarding B”, thus generally encapsulate Actor_or_Culprit and Victim.  Thus the “Nazi Holocaust” would mean all of the Nazis' extermination attempts against any groups based on the identification of that group. That requires that the victim group be put second, and the culprit group be placed first.  

On that basis there should be a suite of pages called (e.g.) [1] Nazi Holocaust against/of Jewish people,  [2] Nazi Holocaust/of against Romani/Sinti people,  [3] Nazi Holocaust against/of Slavic people, [4] Nazi Holocaust against/of Jehovah’s Witness people, etc.   All should be linked from a page called “Nazi Holocaust” which would mean holocaust done by Nazis, against any.  

Note that in note (b) of the page there are suggestions that NEITHER the words Holocaust nor Shoah should be used.  I’d say they require a definition, at which I’ve hinted above.  And unless the terms are shown to be unacceptable regardless of definition and contextual framing, those terms should be used (accepted from usage, with restrictions of definition that are necessary to ensure both fairness and precision).   Antillarum (talk) 19:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Non Jewish

The holocaust was not just Jewish murders. There were five million others murder. This page is a lie 31.120.225.228 (talk) 11:19, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II. Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews across German-occupied Europe, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population." This page is about that, for other genocides look further Separate Nazi persecutions killed a similar or larger number of non-Jewish civilians and prisoners of war (POWs); If you only had an ability to read with comprehension. YBSOne (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)