Talk:Eddie Rickenbacker

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according to: http://www.historynet.com/ahi/blcaptaineddie/ "Contrary to legend, he was not assigned to General John J. Pershing but did wangle an assignment driving Colonel William "Billy" Mitchell's flashy twin-six Packard" Pibwl 15:14, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

movie

he was played by Fred MacMurray in a move, any truth to the story of him almost running over fred as a kid?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.17.185.217 (talk) 13:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Did Eddie run over Fred?

Unlikely. Rickenbacker grew up in Ohio; MacMurray was born in Illinois and apparently lived in Wisconsin as a youngster. Though EVR certainly got around as a race driver, when he joined the army in 1917 FM would've been 8 or 9 years old.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Btillman (talk) • contribs) 23:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The Bill Stern radio show of 8/17/45 relates a tale that Fred MacMurray as a small child ran out on to the track and Rickenbacker crashed into a wall to save the child's life. Many of Stern's stories were pretty hard to believe but I don't know if they were real or not. In any event, it may be the source of the story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:4000:CA20:5C98:B617:C502:4A1C (talk) 02:45, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Eddie sold the Indy Speedway in '45, not '47

Rickenbacker sold the Speedway in 1945, not 1947. The first race under Tony Hulman and President Wilbur Shaw was in 1946 and was won by George Robeson. Mark Dill— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.161.87 (talk) 19:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

One reader's comments

I came to this article knowing nothing about Eddie Rickenbacker except that he was a pilot, and have these thoughts for the contributors: The article, while informative, seems to be based too much on Rickenbacker's autobiography; perhaps not coincidentally, it paints him as a virtual saint. I have no doubt that he did great things, but the article seems to go beyond encyclopedic (NPOV) retelling of his endeavors into outright praise of the man. Even the failure of his car company is passed off as being the fault of his competitors (which, I see on another site, was his version of the story).

Also, the article has too many subheadings. As one example, the section titled Historic view of armistice consists of a single sentence. Surely that one event could be integrated into another section. emw 05:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I've been trying to tone it down. --AW 08:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Same problem still exists 15 years later. This is considered a level five-vital article by the military people WikiSection--it needs and deserves a re-write. I don't mind working on it, but my approach would be to delete huge chunks and start over again with new sources--something I hate to do to a C-rated article. However, it is hard for me or anyone else to reliably edit the existing text when there are few sources and chunks taken directly from a non-neutral source. Rublamb (talk) 03:37, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Race Status?

What does that section mean? Rod, intake valve etc? It doesn't make any sense. --AW 08:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added a confusing tag to this section in hopes that a racing enthusiast can write an explanation of the included chart. Shsilver 16:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Those are the listed reasons for not finishing the race. Click one of the years and you'll see that on the finishing order, a status is given for each driver.--Senna27 (talk) 03:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. It's actually perfectly clear, if you read the table headings. Trekphiler (talk) 04:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Adrift At Sea section very one-sided

I thought that the Adrift At Sea section, like much of this article was very one-sided.

One book that may be another good source for this article is We Thought We Heard the Angels Sing by James C. Whittaker. It is a great book to get another perspective on his time in the raft, and how Rickenbacker was viewed by the others.

I am not going to add anything about it on Wikipedia as this is both my first post (read: I don't know what I am doing), and James Whittaker is a relative making me inherently biased, but it is definitely another place to look.

Several books came out of this incident, and I think it would greatly improve this article to add those accounts as well. Tropicofwhitaker 17:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope I get this right...it's a first for me. If not...well just pretend you see me tug my foreknot!

I was very dissapointed with the lack of significant information in this piece. Like maybe...the names of or at least how many other crewmen made it out. I only read the article because my Great-Uncle was some how involved in this incident, he was a Flight Surgeon in the PTO and the name Rickenbacker was mentioned in that reguard as well as that his Indy mechanic was my father's best friend. I am going to check out your relative's book, maybe there will be some mention in there of my Great-Uncle!! Smiths are darned hard to track down!! Skiddyqueen (talk) 08:36, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Lt. Eadie Was iot the same Pilot who made contact with the Japane BattleGroup at Midway? --88.153.180.255 (talk) 17:07, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

In his sights

Can somebody clarify? Did he get 26 kills, or 9? Or what? Trekphiler (talk) 04:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The term "kill" is used extremely loosely in aviation circles. A far more accurate statement is: "Every kill is a victory but not every victory is a kill." If you look at Rickenbacker's actual victory credits (well documented in Dr. Frank Olynyk's privately published 1991 listing for all US Air Service pilots) you find that EVR had 11 credited "destroyed" (including 4 balloons) and 12 "out of control" plus assorted categories such as "dived east." It has been noted that as squadron commander, EVR could confirm his own claims but I do not know if that was done. At any rate, his "kill" record is overstated. B Tillman Feb 18, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.223.73.46 (talk) 01:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

All of the "kill" records are overstated. That includes the British, French, German, and Canadian claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.46.22.1 (talk) 21:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Collegiate pilots/

As someone who has researched and written or expanded dozens of articles on World War I aces, I am suspicious of the statement that most pilot candidates were college educated. While I admit I have been writing on non-American pilots, I would estimate that about half lacked college education. A much more common career path was service on the ground, followed by transfer to pilot training, service in two seaters, and retraining as a fighter pilot. Education was secondary to aggressiveness and tenacity.

So, either the statement is suspect, or American pilots were exceptionally well educated. Perhaps the author was blinded by the collegiates who became the Lafayette Escadrille and ignored the many Americans who joined the RFC or French air force.

In summary, this statement needs clarifying before a citation is found. ````George J. Dorner, 7 September 2008, 2028 hours PST```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgejdorner (talk • contribs) 03:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I did my thesis on the Lafayette Escadrille and had a similar reaction to this claim. Yes, the LE drummed out their only non-college member and sent others to the Lafayette Flying Corps instead. That being said, that was the French volunteer corps, not the United States. However, because of the popularity of the Lafayette Escadrille in news coverage, there were too many volunteers for America's limited number of airplanes. I believe the initial number was less than ten. As a result, the U.S accepted trained pilots first, and most of those were wealthy individuals who could afford lessons and plane ownership. You could say college graduates, I guess but not by design. I actually think this statement was puffery to make Rickenbacker look better, to make him more heroic to the common man, and to make his lack of education a plus rather than a minus. I will probably remove that claim when I start looking for actual sources. Rublamb (talk) 03:47, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Fred and Eddie

Seems that the story goes that Fred MacMurray strayed out, away from his parents, onto a race track that Rickenbacker was driving. To avoid hitting the child, Rickenbacker steered away, crashing into the wall, saving the life of FM... true? Fiftysevenandy (talk) 10:24, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I just heard this on an old radio show rebrodcast on SIRIUS 7/3/2012. Sounds like a great story if true! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoosierhobbies (talk • contribs) 14:34, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Mile a minute

Not sure where the comment about Rickenbacker being the first to drive a car at a mile a minute, but it is simply not true. People were driving a mile a minute before the turn of the century. Of the top of my head, I can point to William K. Vanderbilt Jrs' 1904 land speed record run at Ormond-Daytona Beach at over 92 mph. Barney Oldfield was the first to run a mile in a minute on an oval track at the Indiana State Fairgrounds in June of 1903. Rickenbacker did first appear in a race car at age 16 in the 1906 Vanderbilt Cup, but only as a riding mechanic, not driver. 24.136.160.247 (talk) 18:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Retrospective scoring

Why all the gobbledy-gook on fractional scoring as an after-thought of World War I?

Aerial combat has always--repeat always--been subject to error and exaggerated claims. No matter what rules are set, or what technological means are invented to verify aerial victory, verifying victory claims was and is an imperfect process. Fractionate the victories, use the most stringent means of verification, and cross-collate the casualty reports in the aftermath--and you are still probably wrong.

History credits Eddie Rickenbacker with 26 victories, and the count is probably wrong, along with the score of just about every other ace who ever lived. Live with it.

The article would be better if this section were excised. Georgejdorner (talk) 05:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Took my own suggestion. Georgejdorner (talk) 06:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I should probably point out some problems with confirming aerial kills for the Allies in WWI--we would go over the front lines looking for German planes to shoot down which made it difficult to confirm kills because the Germans weren't necessarily going to confirm that we were shooting down their own planes. (Rene Fonck supposedly shot down 127 aircraft.) The Germans would tend to stay on their side of the lines and wait for enemy aircraft and then pounce on them, so it was easier for the Germans to confirm kills. The Red Baron supposedly padded the books on his supposed 80 aerial victories--he'd shoot at a plane and it might fly into a cloud and then his buddies in his flying circus would confirm that he shot it down. To illuminate the situation, the North Vietnamese would claim that they shot down a lot of American planes in the Vietnam War which they didn't (the numbers don't tally), while denying planes that the US shot down. Also, in WWI, you'd have to follow a plane down to the ground to see if it crashed, which meant you'd lose a lot of precious time and altitude. And there were planes that just fell apart in the air (some of them were horribly designed and constructed), so I'm assuming somebody might probably claim those as kills. 64.169.154.82 (talk) 09:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

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You obviously have never read Aerial victory standards of World War I, created by me as the primary author, and with all research cited.

You also obviously have never heard of Under the Guns of the Red Baron, written by Norman Franks, who has put in over 35 years historical research into aviation history. Von Richthofen's record is more thoroughly researched than any fighter pilot in history. There is no record of him padding his score. Your assertion is blatant ignorance.

I will ignore your comments about the Vietnam War, in which I served as an aerial observer, because Rickenbacker did not fly in it, rendering those comments irrelevant. Georgejdorner (talk) 16:36, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Nine Distinguished Service Cross Awards

The article lists only 7 Distinguished Service Cross (DSC) awards for Rickenbacker in WWI, however my copy of his autobiography "Rickenbacker" (1967) lists 9 (nine) DSC's--there were two more, on Sept. 25 and Sept.26, in 1918 near Billy, France. Also, can anyone confirm that Rickenbacker fired the last shot of WWI? Apparently, one minute before the war ended he pressed down the trigger on his machine guns while flying over the front and continued firing until the exact second the war ended.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.122.182.103 (talk) 13:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm finding all sorts of numbers. Some say seven, others nine, still others nine plus a tenth later upgraded to the Medal of Honor. Yikes! As for the last shot, I seem to recall from his autobiography, he said he flew over the lines and listened(?) to the jubilant infantry below. Certainly no mention of firing his guns. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I've found confirmation of his 9/26/15 DSC citation (Auburn University collection), which isn't listed in the article. Scratch that. The U.S. wasn't involved in the fighting in 1915. Could be a typo for 1918 though. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The photo of his awards in the article shows ten DSC's. There's nine oak leaf clusters on his DSC medal, which adds up to ten. The Wiki article on DSC's says that Rickenbacker earned 8 DSC's in WWI and a total of 10 DSC's over his whole career. So if one of the 9 DSC's from WWI was upgraded to the Medal of Honor, that leaves 8 DSC's from WWI, and he must have picked up another DSC from World War Two, since the DSC can be awarded to a person serving in any capacity with the US Army. Hope this clears it up, but when did he receive his 10th DSC and for what? 71.139.247.247 (talk) 05:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Wyllie, Col. Robert E. (1921). Orders, Decorations and Insignia: Military and Civil. New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, the Knickerbocker Press. on page 60 Edward V. Rickenbacker, captain, 94th Aero Squadron, Air Service. In addition to the distinguished-service cross and bronze oakleaf heretofore awarded Captain Rickenbacker, he is awarded an oakleaf cluster for the following act of extraordinary heroism in action near Billy, France, September 26, 1918: While on voluntary patrol over the lines he attacked seven enemy 'planes (five type Fokker, protecting two type Halberstadt). Disregarding the odds against him, he dived on them and shot down one of the Fokkers out control. He then attacked one of the Halberstadts and sent it down also. Unfortuantely no source nor date for the citation is given. That is apparently the original DSC citation which was later upgraded to the MoH.

On page 72 it also say's he got a total of 7 clusters in WWI, thus he had 8 awards as of 1921 (the date of that source's publication- one of which was later upgraded) Gecko G (talk) 00:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Interesting Items About Rickenbacker

The average lifespan of an Allied fighter pilot on the Western front in WWI was only 11 days. However, once you became proficient, you would live longer. If you were new and inexperienced you would get shot out of the sky. I have an autographed copy of Rickenbacker's "Fighting The Flying Circus", by the way! It's quite a trip to read a book that he actually had in his hands! Aircraft engines lasted only an average of 18 hours in WWI before they needed an overhaul. However, because Rickenbacker was a mechanic, he got 100 hours out of his engine. Guns would jam at altitude in the cold air because the machine work on the machine guns was rough and the grease would coagulate, so Rickenbacker would spend off hours sanding his gun parts to make them slide smoothly. He would also visually inspect his bullets for uniformity so they wouldn't jam the guns, since precision manufacturing methods weren't necessarily available in those days. He was afraid of heights but this didn't affect him in an airplane because there was no point of reference such as a building. He would originally get airsick and throw up in corkscrew manouvres so he just practiced corkscrews until finally one day he didn't throw up anymore. He was not a driver for General "Blackjack" Pershing as has been so often reported, but he was a driver for Billy Mitchell. (Pershing's nickname was actually not "Blackjack", it was "Ni--er Jack" because he was such a martinette at West Point but the press couldn't use that nickname even in those days so the press came up with "Blackjack"). Billy Mitchell liked the prestige of having a famous race car driver for his chauffeur and would constantly have Rickenbacker drive fast in the Packard or Hudson to pass everything on the road. Rickenbacker never got a pilot's license nor a driver's license in his entire lifetime. He was so famous he didn't need to. At 27, he was too old to be a pilot in WWI but the doctor who examined him turned out to be an old friend and racing fan so the doc wrote down Rickenbacker's age as 25, which let him fly. Rickenbacker, because of his German name and erroneous press stories about him when a racecar driver, was thought to be a German spy in WWI and was under surveillance. However, the head of the Secret Service, William S. Nye, was a friend of Rickenbacker's and told Eddie he was being watched so Rickenbacker just had fun with the notion. Rickenbacker's mother, concerned for her son's safety, wrote him and told him to fly slow and close to the ground. I could go on, there's a tremendous amount of fascinating stuff about Rickenbacker, but I thought I'd just mention a few items in case Wiki editors want to use them. I refer them to his autobiography "Rickenbacker" and his "Fighting The Flying Circus" for further info. 63.198.19.168 (talk) 09:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)Sgt. Rock

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It's a great array of facts, Rock, and you stated them coherently, though in no consistent structure. Why don't you add these facts–complete with citations–into the article? Georgejdorner (talk) 01:59, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

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Place of birth

Did Eddie Rickenbacker ever live in Piqua, Ohio???? There are signs on different streets mentioning his name??? Thank you. Sandy Pella @ Skpella@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.20.131.49 (talk) 21:29, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Rickenbacker Road

In Los Angeles County there is Rickenbaker Road on the former Federal Logistics Center. The Rickenbaker road was a major place to wharehouse WWII material before being sent to the Pacific. It had extensive rail facilities. Many of the original wharehouses still exist and some are in use. Other buildings have been replaced. The Rickenbacher Road facility was used as bus yard during the 1984 Olympics. Saltysailor (talk) 09:46, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Hydraulic brakes

The Rickenbacker car was introduced in 1922, not 1920, and it was not the first with hydraulic brakes. This honor goes to the Duesenberg Model A and the Kenworthy. Both were introduced in 1920.--Chief tin cloud (talk) 07:08, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Eddie Rickenbacker/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Start - pretty much a B class, but need more citations for the information given. Plenty of references given, but difficult to verify what info came from where. Also, WWI section probably does not need a sub section for every paragraph. Aboutmovies 20:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:06, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Family members

I am looking for a gentleman by the same name but a bit younger.My name is Ron, I was in NMCB 40 with him, an hope you can assit me.His name was Eric instead of Eddie. My e-mail is mavisjohnson78@yahoo.com. --2604:2D80:880C:E217:494F:EADA:4941:A8FD (talk) 05:21, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Other work: Cannibal?

Infobox section "Other work" has an entry for "Cannibal" linking to article on cannibalism. Is this correct? There's no context to this entry. In history I can see a recent addition and removal of a reference to cannibalism, but nothing more. The infobox entry probably should be removed, or some context should be given in the article if the claim is credible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.153.46.198 (talk) 19:58, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Good spot, thanks for pointing it out. It was a vandalism originally added on June 25, 2019 by an anonymous user and removed on July 6. But when another anon re-added it on July 7, 2019 it went unnoticed. I have removed it. Thanks again. --Krelnik (talk) 20:37, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Replacing references to theaerodrome.com

The section Verified aerial victories is based solely on citations to theaerodrome.com, which was determined as being "generally unreliable" by RfC on the WP:RSN (see archived discussion). Rather than delete the whole section, I've added a maintenance banner to the top. I hope someone more knowledgeable than me can work through the section, either finding reliable sources for the data, or alternatively removing unsourceable entries. If not sourceable to WP:RS, it might be the easiest simply to remove the section.-Ljleppan (talk) 08:08, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Sunbeam

The article claims that Rickenbacker worked for the Sunbeam motor company in England in late 1916, 'developing a new race car', and was watched by Scotland Yard because of a false story in the LA Times in 1914 that he was a German baron, and supposedly he was still watched (God knows by who, or how he knew about it) even after his return to the US, and this led him to change the spelling of his name, even though the 'Rickenbacker' spelling had already appeared often in the American press. None of this makes any sense, because there was no motor racing in England (or anywhere in Europe) during the Great War and Sunbeam was engaged in manufacturing trucks, airframes and aero engines (mostly other firms' engines, as the Sunbeam designs weren't very good). So whatever Rickenbacker was doing in England at that time, it wasn't what the article says. And if he really was working for Sunbeam in Wolverhampton during the week and spending weekends at the Savoy Hotel in London, either he was being paid a very fat salary (the Savoy is not and never was cheap) or he must have been living on a fortune earned from motor racing in the US. As to whether the Special Branch at the Yard ever took that much interest in him beyond a routine interview on landing at Liverpool, when a simple query to the US Embassy would have told them who he was, it seems doubtful. Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

The war did not start until late July. There was racing in Europe up until that time.

I agree with you that the old newspaper article sounds a bit fantastical. However, I do not support any changes to the article, unless you have proof of what Rickenbacker was up to during that time.

Edit - Sorry, 1916, not 1914. My mistake.

Can you find published sources that disprove what is currently in the article? RegalZ8790 (talk) 03:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Here's a source to get you started. It mentions Rickenbacker being in England during 1914, not 1916.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0758rickenbacker/

Best. RegalZ8790 (talk) 04:12, 13 October 2023 (UTC)