Talk:Mansaf

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For a March 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Mansaf

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Mansaf and Kabsah are completely different things. I'll edit out the refrence for Kabsah.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 January 2021 and 28 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jktab.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Which nationalities?

I have added Kuwait and Iraq because this dish is very popular in these countries although they call it Quzi or Fetah. I agree with you Kabsa is totally different.--Aziz1005 11:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

but its jordanian...why do you have to ruin a simple page about food?

Mansaf is very close to Fetah or Quzi but it is different. Smart_Viral ^(talk) 11:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Mansaf is a jordanian Dish , not a Palestinian dish  !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.186.161.52 (talk) 13:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A very simple GoogleBooks search shows dozens of books which mention mansaf as being a Palestinian dish as well. I'll go check through them and see what the best to use as proper footnotes are. Note also I'd run across some serious anthropological works arguing that it's not a "Jordanian" dish, but a Bedouin dish that was rigged-up to be a brand-new "national symbol" after the founding of the Kingdom of Jordan. There's some fascinating cultural history here, so it really shouldn't be obscured by flag-waving for whose nation claims it. MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

None of the current refs are much good at all; I'll plan to go and re-footnote most of the current article to better references than cooking sites. Again, not just travel guides and cookbooks, but plenty of socio-political and anthropological works on GoogleBooks discuss mansaf, so it should be quite easy to get a good article out of this. MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Just added some cites and did some rebalancing. For those looking at this article later, if it has taken a greatly Jordanian or Palestinian slant, or doesn't have at least six reliable footnotes, please check back to my version of this period to see if the article has declined. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:17, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I just reverted a series of edits for the following reasons:

• The edits removed almost all mention of Palestinian usage of the dish, aside from an offhanded mention to the "West Bank".
• The edit restored non-authoritative external links to tourism sites and to YouTube
• The edit included a photo, "Adwan and Louzi bedouin..." where the caption stated they were eating mansaf. I checked the source site, and the term "mansaf" appears nowhere in the source description. It is entirely possible that in the pic they're eating any other dish that involves rice on a platter, and not the specific mansaf made with yogurt sauce. This again risks historical revisionism, adding "history" to a dish that at least a couple academics believe might be a modern innovation.
• The edit removed a summary of a historian's argument that the "national dish" status of mansaf is a modern creation. What is objectionable about this short paragraph, other than it offending nationalist sentiments?

MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The article was reverted to it's current state as the edits deleted important information and removed the bibliography on which the article is based, and almost all additional/supplementary sources. Characterizing the dish as "middle eastern" would give the false impression that Mansaf is eaten in the whole region of middle east while it exists only in Jordan and has been newly introduced to parts of the west bank. Politicizing a "meal" is not a good idea especially when it based on a one never-heard argument, doing so though, shouldn't be at the expense of existing well-known facts, no information should be deleted since it's all referenced. As for the photo it shows the traditional Jordanian way of eating wether the source specified the dish or not, the purpose of the photo is to illustrate the traditional Jordanian way of eating mentioned in the article, although no dish in Jordan is eaten like that except Mansaf. NJT90 (talk) 11:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The "supplementary" sources were generally non-WP:RS sources, such as tourism sites and fansites, so those are no great loss. Further, a lot of those sites were just used to over-footnote really basic information. No matter how frantically you footnote "Jordan's national dish[1][2][3][4][5]" that doesn't somehow remove the credibility of other reliable sources stating it is found outside of Jordan.

So far as Politicizing a "meal" is not a good idea, it is you and not I who are politicising it. You're trying to turn a cuisine article into a Jordanian propaganda piece, which is just silly. There are tons and tons of gBooks hits for "mansaf Palestine" and "mansaf Syria". If indeed it is only "newly introduced to parts of the west bank" (are you deliberately avoiding the word "Palestine"?) please provide references stating this. So far as the statements that mansaf is used as a political symbol by the Jordanian government, yes it is primarily one anthropologist who's fleshed out a larger argument on that (that I can find on gBooks) but he's widely cited by others. And, ironically, your own editing behaviour seems to bear testament to how politically contentious a simple pile of rice and yogurt is. I fear we're seeing some WP:TIGERS here... MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Was this the first pizza?

The Italians, who were historically known for travel and trade with distant countries, did trade a lot with the Middle East. In fact most traditional Italian foods were really originially borrowed and then imported to Italy from countries that Italy (and formerly, Rome) traded with.

Did the Italians get the original idea for pizza pie from mansaf? It is a flat

topped with a cheese-like product, and meat and sauce and liberal sprinklings of herbs and spices. 

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

More like a half-sister. The origin of pizza is ultimately Ancient Greek plakenta ("pan-cake",hence placenta), which was locally adapted during Roman times, and transformed into modern pizza when the American tomato was established in Europe.

Similarly, pan-fried flatbread with toppings was widely popular southeastweards to the Levant, where it gave rise to modern dishes like döner pide and mansaf-style Arabic dishes. However, the Arab/Persian flatbread (lavash) is thinner and crisper than Greek/Turkish pita/pide or pizza crust, and in mansaf etc the toppings are added only at serving. 2A02:908:4B30:B960:4C3D:24B5:29EC:D9BD (talk) 15:40, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 June 2012

Please retrieve the original version before the IP user's edits as what have been added is not referenced and the references does not claim what the IP user added. NJT90 (talk) 09:14, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Could we give Mr IP a chance to defend his changes? If there are no comments within a couple of days I will happily revert. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:29, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

No response so  Reverted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:36, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Uncited comments on herbs - find source?

Removed January 2015:

A spice mixture of baharat, and in Jordan, herbs called hwajeh, add distinctive flavor, with regional variations.

MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Yogurt vs Jamid

Ok, I'm sitting here enjoying this food - looking this article up to link the article to a facebook thread discussing the awesome meal I'm enjoying right now.

To my shock and horror - I'm seeing "Jamid" listed as the "traditional" way of making this dish?

1) Fermented. We're Arabs. We don't do fermentation. Where's this coming from? 2) Powder != traditional. The dish I eat comes from family recipes in villages - not urban areas. The ceremonious way of preparing mansaf is with fresh yogurt, and it must done by multiple people - as preparing fresh yogurt requires great care when adding it to hot lamb broth. It's a painstaking process which must be done slowly, and very carefully. Adding some jamid powder to a pot of water - that's not exactly "ceremonious". In a LIFETIME of attending Nikah, Khatib, Aqiqa, Eid Iftar - we've always had the fresh versions of this dish. The Jamid version has been looked down on as cutting corners.

Just as with any cuisine, opening a can or a box - that's not cuisine and that's not cooking. It's the same with this food.

18:08, 31 January 2016‎ User:Kyanwan

Hello @Kyanwan:, if you want to change something, you have to have a clear citation for it. Or, if there's a fact in the article now that's not properly substantiated by the sources cited, you can remove it and clearly explain why in the Edit Summary. Note you can't just say "I disagree", you have to replace it with clearly-cited info that's of better quality (not a blog, not Facebook, not even a recipe site, but a serious news/magazine article or mention in a reputable published book). MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:07, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Did I edit? No, if I did not understand that - I would have just edited the article. Threw the suggestion out there for someone else. You've clearly got some type of strange agenda on this article. --Kyanwan (talk) 16:00, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I think what he meant to say is, we'd love to get the correct information in the article, but no one else knows where to look to find a source for it. And we hope you can help locate a source. Ibadibam (talk) 00:18, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Historical sources (testimony or modern research) would seem appropriate. What Kyanwan describes is the traditional way, the "ancestral mansaf" so to speak, prepared for special occasions. Most contemporary sources one finds online are about the modern Jordanian ("national") everyday or "secular" version, which tends to use jamid for ease and speed of use. So Google Books or Google Scholar, not simple Internet search, would seem to be the way to source this. Hope that helps. 2A02:908:4B30:B960:4C3D:24B5:29EC:D9BD (talk) 15:44, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Exactly what I had in mind. I re-read the article, and it's so much better than I remember it with references to traditional preparation. Whoever did that, nice job. Kyanwan (talk) 04:37, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2016

Mansaf is a jordanian Dish , not a Palestinian dish

Mansaf is a jordanian Dish , not a Palestinian dish

You saying the same thing over and over is not a convincing argument. Nobody will listen to you unless you provide actual evidence by citing serious sources. "I don't like this" is not a valid argument. MatthewVanitas (talk) 11:49, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Jordanian or Jordanian and Palestinian?

I'm not seeing any valid argument that "Jordanian and Palestinian" is incorrect. You can argue at-length whether Palestinians are Jordanians or vice versa, or it mansaf is eaten by "Jordanian Palestinians" in the West Bank but not by "Other Palestinians". I'd be fine nuancing it further down, but I'm not seeing any reason that some exclusive Jordanian claim should be asserted in the lede. Just a few minor quotes from reputable works:

• Colonial Effects: The Making of National Identity in Jordan - Page 263

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0231505701 Joseph A. Massad - 2012 - ‎Preview - ‎More editions Many East Bank Palestinian Jordanians are content to be both Jordanians and Palestinians; they realize that their ... began to speak in a hybrid accent of Palestinian and Jordanian; that since 1970, mansaf, Jordan's invented national dish, ...

• Citizenship and National Identity in Jordan: A National ... - Page 147

https://books.google.com/books?id=K3TOAAAAMAAJ Stefanie E. Nanes - 2003 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions This group tended to stress more fluid concepts of identity and the possibility for integration of Palestinian Jordanians ... the eating of the Jordanian national dish, mansaf, which Palestinian Jordanians now eat at their own family celebrations, ...

• A Companion to Diaspora and Transnationalism

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1118320646 Ato Quayson, ‎Girish Daswani - 2013 - ‎Preview - ‎More editions The café also had a special catering menu for parties and events and offered special food usually associated with Palestinian feasts and weddings: kharuf (stuffed lamb), mansaf (rice, bread soaked in dried yoghurt broth, and chunks of lamb), ...

• Classic Palestinian Cuisine

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0863568793 Christiane Dabdoub Nasser - 2013 - ‎Preview - ‎More editions The mansaf is served in alarge sidir, a big round brass platter without western tableware. The men will sitalone in a circle aroundthe sidir and eat while the women of the house are inthe kitchen. On such occasions,it is the duty of the man of the ...

• Palestinian Arab Folklore Centre - Page 67

https://books.google.com/books?id=OKa0AAAAIAAJ Zaynab Jawād Ḥusaynī - 1981 - ‎Snippet view Zaynab Jawād Ḥusaynī. COPPER AND BRASS WARE ( LATE 1930s ) 1 ) Large copper tray decorated with a star in the centre and other designs, used to carry and serve the " Mansaf" — a famous Arab dish of meat, rice and cooked sour milk.

• Mourning in Bethlehem: Impact of the Gulf War on ... - Page 74

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0852441746 Patrick White - 1992 - ‎Preview I addressed 20,000 people gathered as they celebrated the peace with a huge meal called a mansaf.' He went on to touch on more recent problems. During the intifada groupsof young Palestinian men from the various political parties came to ...

• Daily Life of Arab Americans in the 21st Century - Page 228

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0313377146 Anan Ameri, ‎Holly Arida - 2012 - ‎Preview - ‎More editions ... and red checkered scarf worn by Arab men, particularly Palestinian peasants, over the head or around the shoulders, ... from the groom and his family to the bride. mansaf—A traditional dish that is popular in Jordan and parts of Palestine.

• Back Stories: U.S. News Production and Palestinian Politics - Page 8

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0804784272 Amahl Bishara - 2013 - ‎Preview - ‎More editions U.S. News Production and Palestinian Politics Amahl Bishara. launcher. He fell to ... me with an immense platter of mansaf, a Hebron specialty of lamb, yoghurt, and rice topped with sautéed almonds on a bed of bread dumplings. I delivered a ...

• Temps et espaces en Palestine: flux et résistances ... - Page 289

https://books.google.com/books?id... - Translate this page Roger Heacock - 2008 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions that was developing since the 1950s, and which was solidified after 1970, saw Palestinian Jordanians as the other ... like Transjordanian urban men, began to speak in a hybrid accent of Palestinian and Jordanian, that since 1970, mansaf, ...

If mansaf is in some transitional stage in Palestine, by all means let's explore that in the article, but I have real trouble seeing an insistence on an exclusively Jordanian claim as being other than jingoism, or unnecessarily dragging the Palestinian Identity debate into a cuisine article. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:22, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Your reputable works are not backing up what you are saying

First source 1- No Mansaf was not "invented" in 1970, that is an extraordinary claim.

2-Palestinians now eat Mansaf, how does that make the dish Palestinian? The countries mentioned in infobox include Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, does this mean that Mansaf is a Jordanian-Palestinian-Iraqi-Saudi Arabian-Syrian dish?!?

3- If you would even continue reading the book your quoting "is marketed as traditional 'Palestinian food', despite the fact that all were modernized versions and that hardly any of the ingredients were from Palestine". Also if Pizzas are eaten in Saudi Arabian birthday parties, doesn't really make them Saudi Arabian :)

4- Also, Palestinians eating Mansaf, different from a Mansaf being Palestinian.

5- same as 4th source

6- Same

7- Same

8- "Hebron speciality" refers to a variation, if you disagree, then its still fringe.

9- Same as 1st source

As far as the history of article shows me, you have been engaging in pushing this point of view for 4 entire years. This is a highly sensitive issue, as you can see by the number of IPs who tried to challenge the claim and my slightly aggressive approach. If you want to ask why, its a long story but it has something to do with Zionist fanatics across the river. In any case, I can bring you hundreds of Arabic source that says that the dish is only Jordanian. In other words, this point of view is completely fringe and has no place here. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello @Makeandtoss:, it is quite clear that you have not read the above sources other than the brief summaries shown, since you are repeatedly misinterpreting them. I am not at all pushing a POV, and I suggest you reflect that if for four years all I've had to contend with is frantic IP assaults, single-use accounts, and just generally a complete lack of argument beyond "Mansaf is Jordanian only!!!!", then maybe it is not I that am the POV-pusher? You've come along to make about exactly the same argument as these many IPs, with only slightly more attempt to justify them, broad "your sources are fringe" and taking all of two minutes to dismiss my above suggestions without even looking at the page (the book does not at all say mansaf was invented in 1970, only by not looking at the page at all could a reader assume it means that).

I would submit too that phrasings such as "Zionist fanatics across the river" do not at all demonstrate your good faith in these edits, but rather just more of the same politically-driven interference in a cuisine article. I'm not at all ignoring the politics of this, I'm just saying that the ongoing debate about "what is a Jordanian, what is a Palestinian?" is not an appropriate reason to ban either term from this article, the most neutral way is to recognize that both identities are used in describing the dish.

I will go and make additional edits to the article, with my citations explicitly including quotations from appropriate passages, so that you can be assured appropriate sources are being used, but I strongly urge you to keep an open mind on this issue and do not, like so, so many IPs and single use accounts before, keep pushing based on POV. You are clearly an experienced editor, and should not be fighting an identical battle alongside those unhelpful detractors. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:51, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

As a compromise (temporarily or permanently), I'm labeling it in the lede as an Arabian dish, and putting "Levant and Arabia" under the Regions heading in the infobox. While the very next portion of the lede states (factually) that the dish is declared as the "national dish" of Jordan, which is not at all in dispute. What is in dispute is whether Jordan merits any exclusive right to this dish, rather than it being a regional Bedouin dish which was later recognized by Jordan as a national symbol and more widely promulgated among non-Bedouins. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:17, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

No I did not imply that my interference in this article is politically driven, I said that my aggressive approach is. That picture does not belong here, made by some American Jordanian Palestinians, I have never seen a Mansaf looking like that.. Now, Mansaf is a dish that was prepared by the bedouins of Southern Greater Syria. Most sources call it Jordanian, you cannot call it also Palestinian because it was prepared by Palestinian bedouins in the past because that is Original Research. You cannot also call it Jordanian-Palestinian because that is also original research. If you have noticed, you created an entire section "Invention as a "national dish"." based on the opinion of one person, that is exactly what fringe means. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello @Makeandtoss:, I think we're definitely getting on the right track now, this is a productive discussion.

Re the "traditional mansaf" photo, I fail to see how the photo is incorrect; arguing that one personally has never seen such a mansaf does sound rather OR. The image appears to closely meet the text descriptions of the dish. The photo you support, "Sakib mansaf", is simply a poor-quality photo. There are a number of photos on WikimediaCommons of mansaf, most of which are notably clearer and better resolution than the one you previously chose, so I'm open to choosing amongst the best ones. Note I found a great photo on WC of a woman in Petra cooking a mansaf and added it, that one looks great.

I don't disagree that many sources discussing Jordan mention mansaf as being popular there or "Jordanian", I'm noting that an exclusive claim in the first sentence is undue. Do you concur that describing the dish as Arab (or possibly more precisely as Levantine though spilling into Saudi and Iraq makes that slightly limited), while clearly stating that it is found in Jordan, Palestine, Syria, etc. and also noting that Jordan declares it a "national dish" would be accurate and neutral?

I fail to see how it's OR to consider it also a Palestinian dish if it has a history among the Bedouins that are found across Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, etc. as well as some nearby areas. The sources explicitly state that Palestinian Bedouins have long eaten the dish, and that it is now also enjoyed by Palestinian urbanites and integrated into their cultural practices. The existence of mansaf pre-dates the creation of Jordan, and historically and currently the dish is by no means found exclusively within the modern boundaries of Jordan. Nobody is saying that Jordan and mansaf aren't related, just rebutting that Jordan has any exclusive or pre-eminent claim to being the owners of mansaf.

I do concur that J. A. Massad's work on mansaf puts forward much more detailed arguments than any other academic I've run across within my search capabilities, but Massad is a widely respected and cited academic, so "fringe" is not at all an appropriate description. He's not a blogger or some lone wing-nut, he's a very respected professor, and I've very clearly stated which passages are stating arguments for which he is the strongest advocate.

I think we're getting a lot further on resolution for this, after a lot of unhelpful posters in the past, so I thank you for your well-thought-out replies on this debate, which help us all make the article strong and credible. I think as we continue like this we can smoothly find a conclusion which neutrally and accurately informs our readers. MatthewVanitas (talk) 10:48, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

@MatthewVanitas: I find it obscene that you agree with putting names of other countries but not for Jordan because "the existence of mansaf pre-dates the creation of Jordan". Makeandtoss (talk) 11:01, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I think "obscene" is really an over-wrought adjective, but whatever. How on earth am I doing "not for Jordan"? I am quite explicitly including Jordan, listing Jordan's name first as a friendly concession, and explicitly mentioning Jordan's designation of mansaf as a "national dish" right in the lede. Do you mean to imply that I am somehow censoring out Jordan's involvement? I can't at all see how that would be remotely the case. MatthewVanitas (talk) 11:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

@MatthewVanitas: Not what I meant. You seem to be more interested in adding the term Jordanian-Palestinian than anything else, despite the fact that Mansaf "pre-dates" Palestine too, as per the discussion "Jordanian or Jordanian and Palestinian?". Plus its the bedouins of the Negev, aka Israeli, perhaps we should add that too :) Makeandtoss (talk) 12:56, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Where have I ever inserted the phrase "Jordanian-Palestinian" other than quoting from the caption of the photo (and I still don't see what's wrong with that photo, but per your input I chose a different one)? I'm not trying to re-define any nationality, I'm just saying I don't think it accurate to call it a "Jordanian dish" exclusively. If you have reliable sources that mention Israeli Bedouins traditionally (or currently) having strong associations with mansaf, by all means add it. Also, several of the citations (from before my arrival years ago) are weak, informal, blog-type citations, so if you can help replace those that'd be great. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

@MatthewVanitas: "Jordanian and Palestinian". Mansaf is made from Jameed, a form of dried yoghurt that is exclusively produced in industrial quantities by Jordan. The Mansaf dish is also exclusively attributed to Jordan and Jordanian culture. Majority of sources also say that the dish is exclusively Jordanian. The dish is not also Palestinian because the Palestinians eat it. That claim is so extraordinary, that dozens of IPs tried to oppose it. This has no place here and I will make sure it wouldn't. Go get me enough sources that explicitly say that Mansaf is Palestinian, then we would discuss. For now Jordanian only will stay. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:32, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss:, "dozens of IPs" is hardly a ringing endorsement, practically the opposite. So what, a bunch of people (IPs and single-use) have jumped in here trying to POV push, that doesn't help in the slightest. You're putting out at least clearer arguments, but I am not seeing anything that supports a claim so extraordinary as an "exclusive" Jordanian claim. I need to slowly go through the edits you've made to see what changed, but it appears you've removed completely clearly cited facts like that Hebron is famous for its mansaf. Also, you persist in inserting the very poor-quality "Sakib" photo; what on earth is your motive for inserting such an inferior photo when there are literally dozens of better photos on Wikimedia Commons. Your an experienced editor, hold yourself to a higher standard than the frantic novices who burst in here shouting "mansaf is only Jordanian". I'm changing the lead to "Levantine Arab dish" and changing to a non-terrible photo, and the rest we can sort out in the fullness of time. I submit that even if you insist it is Jordanian, "Levantine Arabic" is still not incorrect since Jordan is in the greater Levant, so that opening phrase should remain. You and I should post asking for a neutral outside parties to come weigh in on this disagreement; I suggest we inquire, in a completely neutrally-phrased manner, at WikiProject Food. MatthewVanitas (talk) 09:17, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I have placed a neutrally-worded request for outside input at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Food_and_drink#Neutral_arbitrators_needed_at_Mansaf_.28Middle_Eastern_rice_dish.29. Let's take a step back and see what a third party with fresh eyes has to say. MatthewVanitas (talk) 09:24, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I keep changing the picture because its the only picture that actually looks like Mansaf. The variation with herb is not common, the color of rice is also uncommon. The picture is downsized anyway, how would resolution even matter. I personally see no difference. I'd agree with naming the dish Arabic Levantine while adding the phrase "as well as its most distinctive cultural feature". And no its not popular in other countries, its common. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:31, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

It seems that the "1970" source is saying not that the dish itself was invented in 1970, but that the invention of its status as a national dish coincided with the rise of Jordanian nationalism surrounding the 1970 Black September war (recall that prior to that, the Hashemites promoted a "Greater Syrian" identity). National claims to long-established dishes are highly problematic, because traditional cultural boundaries tend not to be coterminous with modern political borders. For the region under discussion, the term Levant is in use to avoid just such a dispute as this one. I'd go with that, unless you can find sources that specifically place the dish's creation within Jordan, after the 1946 creation of the modern state, and by Jordanian nationals. Ibadibam (talk) 20:31, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

@Ibadibam: [1]. Another 20 sources here [2]. And no that is wrong because only King Abdullah I had aspirations for a greater Syria, he died in 1951, his aspirations weren't even shared by his people. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:40, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

The point is that the Jordanian national identity is a modern one, and the dish predates it. Although we lack a source for the precise period of time when the dish developed, everyone in this discussion seems to agree that it's an old, traditional dish. At the very least, we have sources associating the dish with a transnational culture, which is more consistent with our assumptions about its age. Or do I misunderstand, and you are arguing that it's a modern dish? Ibadibam (talk) 21:01, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I@Ibadibam: it is an old dish but it only became Mansaf recently, rice, the largest feature of the dish, was introduced in the 1920s.. Jordanian identity developed in 1920s during the emirate period. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:05, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I think I'm beginning to understand. It's originally a transnational dish, which took on a new form with the increase in sedentism and expansion of trade (which increased the availability of rice in the region) that followed the Ottoman partition, coinciding with the rise of nationalism. So it seems like the article should state that it's a Levantine dish from the greater Jordan Valley region, and that the modern dish has a very strong association with Jordan. Ibadibam (talk) 22:05, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

@Ibadibam: Yes but the modern dish has a very strong association with Jordan, means that its a Jordanian dish. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:25, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I think overall we're getting pretty close to consensus. I take issue with ""as well as its most distinctive cultural feature"; are you meaning that Jordan's most significant cultural aspect is a rice dish? Or is the grammar confusing this? In any case, I also dispute that just because Jordanians strongly think of it as "Jordanian" that we can conclude the whole world agrees. Americans eat pizzas and tacos, but explicitly consider the to be an Italian dish and Mexican dish within America. Are you arguing that when Palestinians, Syrians, etc. decide to cook mansaf for a party, they say to themselves "hey, let's branch out and add a Jordanian theme to this party!" instead of just considering it a culturally natural and native dish to cook?

Getting back to the Sakib photo, I argue that yes it does matter, it's a poor-quality photo. I for one click on infobox photos all the time, so low-res is an issue because when a reader wants to take a closer look, all they'll get is a dim and blurry little blob. Your argument is equivalent to me saying "this photo at Taco doesn't look like the tacos I get at Casa Clasica on 24th Avenue in Mexico City so I want it changed". There are dozens of photos of mansaf on Wikimedia Commons, let's pick one that isn't a terrible low-res photo. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:55, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I have had Mansaf too many times, the only picture i can say that it truly represents Mansaf is the sakib picture. Palestinians call Mansaf Jordanian, Iraqis call Mansaf Jordanian and Syrians call Mansaf Jordanian. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Right, Makeandtoss, the modern version has a Jordanian association. The dish in general, in its historical context, does not. It's a little like the flags of Jordan, Palestine, Sudan, etc. that all use the Pan-Arab colors: no one country can solely claim this design, but each has put a unique mark on it. So this article should make the modern Jordanian connection very clear, while still acknowledging the dish's pre-Jordanian origins. I think the article's current form does a good job of that. Ibadibam (talk) 22:25, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

The modern version is what makes the dish, a dish. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:29, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Bigots will be bigots, and I see some very clear bias on the part of this Matthew editor ... Jordanian propaganda piece? Food? Seriously? Political lamb and rice? Jordanian = Palestinian since so many Palestinians live in Jordan I guess. No question on how/why they got there and adopted Jordanian culture. 4 years of "hard work" on this article does an expert make. Not like a lifetime of culture and actually -living- the culture gives people insight on it ... which, may I add can be backed up by books. ( I'd pull out a few big words, but that's being overly pompous and condescending. Gild yourself with insight all you want, the stink of bigotry sits firmly whether you like it or not. )

One further "BTW" - that picture of "real Mansaf"... every single time I've eaten Mansaf - with Palestinans, with Jordanians, in the USA, in Jordan - in Irbid, in Amman, in KufrAsad ... shall I go on naming places - every single time it has been prepared with snoober, begdonis, and limon. It's not made with almonds. That's an imitation in the picture. Almost right ... not quite right. I get that the yogurt prep is a thing of debate ... but, the actual presentation final product is most certainly not. Opinion, nah, don't think so. But ; were I to give more s's about this ... I'd dig up the sources. Why not. Sources will back me up - like this "matthew" attempts to be a master of Arab culture "Oh, they're all the same, who cares - call it the Levant" ... next up you'll be calling it the official dish of ISIL. I think this article needs a new "person in charge" ... someone who is unobjective and a little more open to actual sources like quoted above. Like you mentioned about Italian food, while it's served all over the world since people like it ... doesn't make that food NON-ITALIAN since it's served elsewhere. Mansaf is Jordanian. Palestinians fled to Jordan way back when, adopted Jordanian culture. Do we need to find it in writing, like in the 10 books linked above? Or do we need some bigot to say "Oh, they're all the same anyways, lets call it an Arab dish from someplace called "Levant" - these uncivilized brown people don't have any identity or culture anyways. Wheres some real moderation when you need it? --Kyanwan (talk) 15:53, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how a personal attack on another editor is going to accomplish anything here. Individual editors are not expected to be experts or masters of any field—we are to rely on the published work of experts, incorporating them into Wikipedia as sources. Yes, Wikipedia suffers from systemic bias that inherently marginalizes the Arab world. Yes, Wikipedia is often wrong, due to the reliance on published sources which may be inaccurate. No, MatthewVanitas is not the cause of this.

The best sources we have right now indicate that the concept of mansaf predates the emergence of Jordanian nationalism, even if the modern form of the dish is closely associated with Jordan. It would be great to have more sources to give a more well-rounded account of the dish's origins and cultural significance. Ibadibam (talk) 00:27, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

"Thou Shalt Not Cook the Baby Goat in it's Mother's Milk"... it basically seems to have to revolve around post-Ottomanic migration and borders. The original dish was not Beduin but of the settled population. Jordan is popularly considered a Beduin country. In the historical Transjordanian population, this dish would have been rare or absent due to the difficulty of procuring the distinctive ingredient (some dehydrated fermented-milk produce). A precedessor dish of Jordanian mansaf would have been popular among the (non-Jewish) population of the Levant however, but as per the section above it was probably never an "everyday" dish but laboriously prepared for festive occasions.

When the nomad population of the western Arabian desert became sedentary after the establishment of the Hashemite Kingdom, they got access to all the ingredients, and adapted the recipe to local conditions, and the Jordanian mansaf quickly rose to a "national dish".

There might be some historical studies that can be used as a source; as far as it seems though, the Jordanian national-dish mansaf is a significantly different development of the original Levantine dish. The latter can probably be traced back to Mosaic times, given that the ancestral monotheists (Israelites) used a food taboo that strikingly parallels Levantine mansaf (and no other dish AFAIK) to distinguish themselves from the polytheist (Canaanite) part of the population.

Depending on sources available, we could describe this development. It is culturally significant - somewhat similar to gyros pita being a haraam version of döner kebap that weas developed after Greek independence as a culinary shibbolet.

Also, more on its status in Israel would be nice. Mansaf is, after all, the most complex dish that is explicitly treif (all other treif foods are merely ingredients or at best simple concoctions). So any observant Jews are explicitly forbidden from eating it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:4B30:B960:4C3D:24B5:29EC:D9BD (talk) 16:03, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Page protection

@Materialscientist: page requires protection.. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:29, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

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Wiki Education assignment: Public Writing Fall 2022 F1

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2022 and 12 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Goingtosafar (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Dontbotherme123, Thelegolady.

— Assignment last updated by Everythingbutthebagel (talk) 17:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)