Talk:Paradise, California

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November 8, 2018 fire

After some back and forth, I've added a small addition to the end of the lede at 10:45pm PST. Please remember this isn't a newspaper. We're not here to cover events in real time. I think what I just added expresses the gravity of the situation pretty well. Clearly, over the next several days, many more updates will need to be added, both to document the fire and to update information about physical things already mentioned in the article. But please be patient, change less and discuss more. This is a terrible tragic situation obviously, but as Wikipedians, it's our responsibility to go slow enough to assure we are reporting facts dispassionately, and are not spreading rumors or being sensationalist. We do that by gathering, comparing and weighing as many solid sources as we can and discounting poor sources. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of this. We need a very experienced editor from the area, and to that end, I am pinging Cullen328, an administrator from the Bay area. I'd ask that everyone hold off changes until morning here in the West (I'm in the Boise area). There's no need to hurry. John from Idegon (talk) 07:00, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I've already publicly thanked you for two of your edits. I appreciate all of your efforts.Juneau Mike (talk) 07:14, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have the article on my watchlist now. Although I live over 130 miles from this fire, I can smell the smoke at my home. This is a catastrophe for this community. As long as editors summarize and cite high quality reliable sources, editing should proceed normally. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:33, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a fair amount of vandalism on this page recently, prior to today, and a fair bit of overexcited unneeded changes occuring as we speak. I'm not seeing much change in sourcing online, so I think it's a fair expectation that the article should stay stable til morning. I pinged you to help moderate, and I have got to go to bed. Betting you do too. Would you consider 8-12 hours of semi? Thanks,Jim. John from Idegon (talk) 07:58, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

DefinitelyJuneau Mike (talk) 08:16, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple news sources are now reporting Paradise has been confirmed to have been totally destroyed by the fire, so I think we can begin doing long term edits. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 16:50, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What sources say that, JustAnotherWikiUser0816? Cause CBS quoted a fire official as saying something quite different from completely destroyed" this morning. "Completely destroyed" would mean no structures left standing, and even without a different view from a fire official, I'd find that hard to believe. Brick structures generally do not burn, steel structures require a fairly long exposure to high heat to collapse. Please don't be sensationalist. John from Idegon (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok... Looking back, I jumped the gun a little on saying that after seeing one or two articles this morning. But in the past hour multiple news outlets including NBC, CNN, and the Washington post have said Paradise has been decimated, and talking with others it seems a good estimation of the percent of the town destroyed would be 95%+. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 22:48, 9 November 2018

Not every building in the town was destroyed. Not every burned structure has been checked for victims. Editors, especially IP editors, have been adding wholly unsourced material. I agree with John from Idegon that this article needs less updates and changing figures. If someone wants hour-by-hour reports, they can get them from updated news coverage, and they don't need to be inserted in the article. Activist (talk) 08:00, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per Reuters as of Sunday the death toll is 31 and 228 are missing. ELSRG (talk) 10:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is / Was ?

When the town turns into something else, ie. a parking lot, meadow, a theme park or a wildlife preserve, it is still (as far a Wikipedia is concerned) Paradise, California. - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 22:25, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. A destroyed town is still a town. Its ruins and geography exist, so I do not see justification in past-tensing everything about it. 2600:8800:1880:188:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 23:40, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree, although for the time being we could add in something saying something like that most if not all of the town's structures had been destroyed, and the town needs to be rebuilt.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 02:39, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would have no problem with that as long as it's well sourced, ie. Calfire or LATimes. - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 02:45, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is not up to Wikipedia editors to state that the town "needs" to be rebuilt. That is up to local and state authorities, insurance companies and those who lost homes and businesses. And unless California revokes its incorporation, it will still be a town. Perhaps a town of 1000 residents instead of 27,000 residents, but still a town. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with both you two's points. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 04:10, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is still legally a Town until the State of California government says it isn't, period. Knock off the sillyness! Use "is" and revert anything otherwise. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 04:16, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a precendt or MOS for this sort of thing? Looks like there are editors acting in good faith, thinking that the town no longer exists, and using the past tense. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 15:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For all USA community articles in English wikipedia, we use the legal description from each state. An incorporated town, such as Paradise, will continue to be a town until it is legally unincorporated by the state. Just because buildings are destroyed doesn't mean that no one will rebuild, nor does it mean that land ownership under the former building are taken away from the owners. Good faith doesn't trump ignorance of state law. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 03:31, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a link to the relevant state law(s) that would cover this? Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:23, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Brief Summary of Municipal Incorporation Procedures by State
Characteristics and State Requirements for Incorporated Places
Dissolving Cities
Municipal Disincorporation in California
I don't see any disincorporation or dissolution announcements for the Town of Paradise at https://www.townofparadise.com OR https://paradiserecovers.org

• Sbmeirow • Talk • 01:42, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

Are we seriously relying on Barbara Mikkelson as such an expert on the etymology of Paradise, California that she can serve as the authoritative arbiter on various claims? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.175.220.10 (talk) 15:52, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Washington Post now saying the town is "pretty much destroyed"

WaPo article

The article as it is needs to be revamped with more information about the scale and amount of the destruction that has just occurred. As of now, this is easily the most significant event in the town's history. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 14:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Chess: Not sure what you're asking for, it's been known the town was destroyed from day one. You're free to add what ever sourced content you think is missing. - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 14:44, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@FlightTime Phone: I believe there should be more descriptive prose about the scale of the destruction, as well as more emphasis. For one, the fire should be mentioned above the infobox. Other towns destroyed/severely affected by fire like Marysville in Australia and Fort McMurray in Canada get the same treatment. The Marysville article also gets into detail about what buildings were destroyed. We should try to quantify the extent of the destruction for our readers is what I'm trying to get at. Simply saying the town "was destroyed" only really tells us that the majority of the town suffered >50% damage, as is the definition of destruction in CA. I would say many of the buildings in town suffered much greater than 50% damage, and we should add info to reflect that. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 19:51, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, Chess, they haven't even located all the dead yet. No one sat down and wrote the definitive history of the Civil War in April, 1865. Sources are mainly focused on the salvage and recovery operations at this time. There is no need to hurry up and add info that may have to be rewritten later. We serve the long view. Outside of updating numbers as the sources publish (and agree on), there's not going to be much to do here until info definitive info on what's gone (which IMO shouldn't be our focus) and what has survived starts being widely reported. John from Idegon (talk) 21:21, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Updating the toll

It is at least 56.

--Mortense (talk) 18:28, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And now it's 71 with 1,011 people unaccounted for, but the article give two different outdated death tolls and an outdated number for the missing. If you're going to semi-protect a current event you should stay on top of it. I've been helping update Wikipedia nearly since it was started without ever registering and I don't intend to register now just to update this article.

--2601:602:9A00:3526:FC00:F4BF:2F:2FB (talk) 17:30, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The official article about the fire is Camp Fire (2018). Most recent death counts are for the overall fire, not just for the town of Paradise. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 10:01, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2018

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Update death toll in intro section from 42 to 71.
Update death tool in 2018 Fire section from 23 to 71.
Update number of missing in 2018 Fire section from "over 100" to 1,011.
Stay on top of this stuff. The article is several days out of date.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-wildfires/teams-search-for-1000-missing-in-californias-deadliest-wildfire-idUSKCN1NM0DJ 2601:602:9A00:3526:FC00:F4BF:2F:2FB (talk) 17:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Calm down, the article will be updated in due time. - FlightTime Phone (open channel) 17:51, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done You want current info, go to CNN. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. If you look at the discussions above, we are waiting until the numbers stop changing daily to update. John from Idegon (talk) 18:13, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I overhauled the intro. The article about the fire is "Camp Fire (2018)", thus the total fire death & destruction counts shouldn't be duplicated in both articles. Since most news reports are currently stating the total number of deaths for the entire fire, we can't use those death counts for the town of Paradise, because people have died in Concow, California and other rural locations too. Editors need to use official sources that clearly breaks down the death count by community. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 10:12, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for actually doing something about the inaccuracies in the article instead of telling me to "calm down." Your solution makes perfect sense. The earlier comments from others are a perfect illustration of why I've never bothered to create an account for my edits. Too many editors with attitudes. 2601:602:9A00:3526:462:E88B:1518:BC4F (talk) 23:40, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

POTUS visit on 19 November 2018

clearly violates pillar policy WP:NOT, particularly WP:NOTFORUM

Should not there be mention of the visit of Donald J. Trump, on 19 November 2018?

On 19 November 2018, the 45th president of the United States of America, self-described as a very stable genius, renamed, in a show of deeply-felt compassion (unless it was genuine ignorance), the town of Paradise: Pleasure - Wikipedia being an encyclopedia, and this being a verifiable fact, this great historical name-change should be included in the article - probably in the History subsection Naming. maybe going even as far as adding (aka Pleasure) to the title of the article.

--2A01:CB00:885:F600:304A:2C7:4739:4452 (talk) 10:09, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Huh??? Not for saying the name wrong. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 10:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sbmeirow, thank you for your suggestion. I agree with the mention *for saying the name wrong*, because the incident cannot be ignored.

--2A01:CB00:885:F600:304A:2C7:4739:4452 (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please make your comments in a straightforward manner and without sarcasm. As for your suggestion, his mis-stating does not belong in this article. It is mentioned at the main article about the fire, Camp Fire (2018), where his visit is described. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:39, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello MelanieN, The reason I put a statement in the talk page of the article is because I thought that a little sarcasm was allowed on a talk page, which would not be in the article itself. And, because of my rights to speak my mind - 1st Amendment to the US Constitution? -, I do maintain the use of sarcasm here.

This being said, I would like to thank you for directing me to the Camp Fire (2018) article, which covers what I was really saying.

Best regards, --2A01:CB00:885:F600:304A:2C7:4739:4452 (talk) 22:09, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

IPv6 editor, you do not have any rights guaranteed by the Constitution here. If you don't understand why that is, perhaps you should spend some time studying Civics prior to attempting to edit here further. John from Idegon (talk) 01:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dear John from Idegon, US Constitution or not, I do not believe that expressing - in a sarcastic manner - my opinion on the saying of the present potus, who, beside his show of total ignorance on any subject, does not seem to feel any empathy toward anyone or any tragic situation - no matter how many persons die in horrific manners - shows a lack of knowledge of civics on my part.

Your reproach to me could - maybe - be put on the leader of a country who, when going to a place tragedy has just destroyed, cannot even say the name of the place, or whose only way to show compassion is to happily throw paper towels in the air - so that the inhabitants of a flooded island can wipe it dry.

In addition, please rest assured that I will not intervene/interfere in the discussion page of this article - although, I will repeat that the mis-naming of Paradise to Pleasure by the man who should care the most about the country, should not be skipped in the article.

Wishing you a great Thanksgiving! --2A01:CB00:885:F600:2049:9B2:579B:D914 (talk) 14:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another name

The Mercury News repeatedly refers to the town as "Paradise Ridge." [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.149.110.214 (talk) 13:10, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Paradise High School football team

Is anybody interested in adding that the 2019 Paradise High school football team went undefeated and has won their first playoff game? 64.30.97.172 (talk) 04:09, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]