Talk:Malcolm Fraser

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Malcolm Fraser article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1: 30 days

Biography: Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as High-importance).

University of Oxford Low‑importance

	University of Oxford portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of Oxford, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the University of Oxford on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.University of OxfordWikipedia:WikiProject University of OxfordTemplate:WikiProject University of OxfordUniversity of Oxford articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Australia: Melbourne / Politics Mid‑importance

	Australia portal Malcolm Fraser is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Melbourne (assessed as High-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Australian politics (assessed as Top-importance).
	Need help improving this article? Ask a Librarian^{What's this?} at the National Library of Australia.
	The Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to helpwikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.

Politics Mid‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Conservatism Low‑importance

	Conservatism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Section sizes

Section size for Malcolm Fraser (35 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	9,555	9,555
Early life	15	4,353
Birth and family background	2,154	2,154
Childhood	1,202	1,202
University	982	982
Early political career	1,961	1,961
Backbencher	1,596	1,596
Cabinet Minister and Gorton downfall	3,564	3,564
Opposition (1972–1975)	1,649	4,126
Leader of the Opposition	524	524
Role in the Dismissal	1,953	1,953
Prime Minister (1975–1983)	61	14,990
1975 and 1977 federal elections	1,472	1,472
Fiscal policy	3,087	3,087
Foreign policy	3,974	3,974
Other policy	2,161	2,161
1980 federal election	683	683
Disputes within the Liberal Party	498	498
Labor Party and 1983 federal election	3,054	3,054
Retirement	1,480	17,110
Memphis trousers affair	1,116	1,116
Estrangement from the Liberal Party	9,722	9,722
Later political activity	4,792	4,792
Personal life	18	2,304
Marriage and children	1,130	1,130
Views on religion	1,156	1,156
Death and legacy	5,574	5,574
Published works	200	200
Honours	2,032	2,852
Appointments	820	820
See also	246	246
References	28	28
Bibliography	371	371
Further reading	1,645	1,645
External links	5,805	5,805
Total	76,280	76,280

This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Terminology and numbering

There is an ongoing discussion here which has turned to concern Malcolm Fraser, specifically how to describe his (or at least the beginning of his) and other Prime Minister's premierships and how to number them. It would be very much appreciated if any interested editors could join in and voice their thoughts on the matter! Thanks! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 11:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Want to add headings for the section Prime Minister (1975-1983)

User:Skyring you are the one who reverted my edits. What are your thoughts on my proposed changes? Ak-eater06 (talk) 23:47, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. We've had too much malarky recently over images. I went back to a good version. 2. The section is headed: "Prime Minister (1975–1983)", immediately following a section on how he got the job. We don't need the introduction to his PM section given a heading. 3. Unless you have a pretty good idea of how his government went, I'm not sure that arbitrary divisions are the way to go. Do they really call out the important moments in his term? How much research have you done on this bloke? There's a lot of us lived through that period and have had the advantage of reading forty years of analysis.--Pete (talk) 01:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Skyring it is helpful to add headings for foreign readers. On Bob Hawke, there are headings on Bob Hawke#Prime Minister of Australia. Why can't we do this for Fraser? Ak-eater06 (talk) 03:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objections to these headings - but only if the paragraphs within each of these headings are greatly expanded, and properly cited of course. Thescrubbythug (talk) 05:46, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are you prepared to expand these paragraphs with greater details, and to properly cite them & include any missing citations @Ak-eater06:? Thescrubbythug (talk) 11:02, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've no objections to the proposed sub-headings. GoodDay (talk) 21:27, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

the same photo taken over just 6 years 3 times

Do we really need 3 very similar photos of Fraser over just 6 years? I've removed one (the 1966 pic) but happy with alternative removed. Or maybe even there's even room to remove two.

The three pics below, and here's a diff of how they look in the article.

Fraser in 1962
Fraser as Minister for the Army in 1966
Fraser as Minister for Education and Science in 1968

thoughts? --Merbabu (talk) 23:24, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They are similar, yes - though they also each represent Fraser at different points of his political career. The 62 photo is a representation of Fraser as a backbencher under Menzies, while the 66 photo represents Fraser as a junior minister under Holt - and the 68 photo as a more senior Cabinet minister under Gorton. Thescrubbythug (talk) 05:30, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there - yes, I understand that they are different periods of time (as far apart as every 3 years on average) and in different roles. Indeed that's why i provided the captions here on the talk page. Yet, it's essentially the same picture 3 times over a period of 6 years. If we were to apply that across the whole article and have for every 3 years, we would have almost 30 photos and a very crowded article.

The page was over crowded at that spot and I don't see a need for essentially the same photo every 3 years. They are just posed portraits with no other subject matter. Anyway, that's just my view. --Merbabu (talk) 06:10, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The 1966 one is the best photograph of the lot and for me that would reason to retain it in the article. The dates need to be taken with a pinch of salt as the National Archives is pretty unreliable. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 09:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I ended up changing up the photos a little - not making use of any of those three in question. I added one taken immediately after Fraser's election to Parliament, as well as a completely different image of Fraser during the Gorton Government. I do think of more immediate concern than that of image selections for this article is the paragraphs to do with his political career - nearly all of which I think are in need of great expansion. Thescrubbythug (talk) 04:10, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]