Talk:Suicide/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Initial Discussion

There's a book about suicide where the author argues that there's nothing wrong with it and that it may be a perfectly rational choice; the author later committed suicide. Does anybody remember the title/author? --AxelBoldt

There are a number of people who have espoused this viewpoint and certainly in many non-Christian traditions e.g. Japanese, Celtic and Norse traditions, suicide was/is seen as an honorable or rational act. A book which explores the inexorable logic of suicide within a poetic context which takes this general line is Al Alvarez's The Savage God, though I think Al is choosing to commit suicide at the poker table. user:sjc

This article needs statistics of suicide in the world Joao Why? sjc Because Wikipedia should be a monstrous universal collection of all the knowlege that exists, even that. -- Geronimo Jones

I removed this statement:

In some hilarious cases, the punishment for suicide is death.

First of all, I wouldn't call it "hilarious", second I want some evidence. AxelBoldt

Perhaps a better sentence would have been, "Ironically, in some cases, the punishment in some jurisdictions has been death."

Daniel C. Boyer

Is it just me, or is the christian view slightly biased? I'd be surprised to discover that all christians think like that... -Martin

I could not verify this

Ironically, the punishment for attempted suicide in some jurisdictions has been death. The United Kingdom abolished this punishment in 1961.

Does anybody have any references? AxelBoldt 04:43 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

refs: [1] [2] [3] -Martin

"... the generalized suicide rate among parasuicides is a hundred times higher than that of the population at large."

Parasuicide is the act not the person. Is there some way of rephrasing this? It grates but I can't think of a better way of expressing it. sannse 21:56 Jan 22, 2003 (UTC)

The motivation is a desire for respite and to communicate feelings with "grand gesture". However parasuicide cannot be dismissed; almost half of suicides are preceded by a parasuicide and the generalized suicide rate among parasuicides is a hundred times higher than that of the population at large.

I think the first sentence, The motivation ..., should be reworked a bit and then used as a concluding sentence of the preceding paragraph. The remaining sentence can be reworked and stand on their own in a separate paragraph. One can retain a NPOV yet punch up the statement by avoiding bland terms such as "suicide rate" and "population."

Something simple like this could work:

"Nearly half of suicides are preceded by a parasuicide. Those with a history of parasuicide are 100 times more likely to finally end their own lives."

I have only an ordinary understanding of this subject, so I can't attest to the veracity of the claims. Thanks for disambiguating links in two articles I contributed.-- Rethunk

I've changed the first sentence slightly and modified the second as you suggest (I think your version works well). I used the word "eventually" rather than "finally", maybe you could change that if you think it doesn't work.

I've also taken out the sentence "Few attempted suicides are actually trying to achieve suicide." Attempted suicide is always an attempt at suicide, that's why the term parasuicide is used instead - to include self-harm not intended to lead to death.

As far as I can tell, the "100 times more likely" figure comes from a paper in the British Journal of Psychiatry (Kreitman N, Foster J - 1991). Although that actually says that those with a history of parasuicide are 100 times more likely to kill themselves than the general population "in the following 12-month period". But another study I found suggested this trend continues long term, so I don't think the sentence needs qualifying (the ref for the second paper is BMJ. 2002 Nov 16;325(7373):1125-6. )

I don't have any special knowledge of the subject either, just what I have read in attempts to understand my own psychological condition.

Thanks for your help - sannse

Rather than use the term "attempted suicide" the neologism parasuicide is more correct.

Is there a reference for this? Indeed, this neologism does not appear in the OED or in a typical American dictionary (The American Heritage Dictionary). Is this term generally accepted by those in the medical field? I believe a reference to a medical text would be helpful here.

There are many more parasuicides than suicides.

According to current research, what is the ratio? -- Rethunk

This is certainly a term I've heard often in this context. Particularly in reading about depression and other psychiatric conditions. It's also used in many papers discussing attempted suicide and self-harm. A quick PubMed search gave 345 references for "parasuicide". I don't know enough about medical texts to know what the best reference would be but I think the term is well enough established in the field to stand alone.

In 2000 in the US the ratio of parrasuicides to suicides was about 25:1 according to figures from the American Association of Suicidology (see the first set of statistics at http://www.suicidology.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=21)

An older WHO report, "The Epidemiology of Suicidal Behaviour" said: "The incidence of parasuicide is 10 to 20 times higher than that of completed suicide" (http://www.cicred.ined.fr/rdr/rdr_a/revues/revue69-70/77-69-70_a.html) - sannse

how about:

There are many more parasuicides (attempted suicides) than suicides.

then talk about ratios and give all the cites on the parasuicide page --- williamv1138

"Parasuicide" is a redirect page at the moment, I think it should stay that way for now unless someone wants to write a significant article on it (which would be good to have eventually). The section in this article should work for now I think. -- sannse

It's not obvious to me what 'a post-death oversight' is - could someone clarify please? -- S

The sentence doesn't make sense to me either. I've changed the paragraph, for reference it was:

On an individual level the meaning of suicide varies across a range of common themes. Simply seeking an end is uncommon. Stated reasons include concepts such as a reunion with the dead (bereavement is a additional factor in some suicides), a post-death oversight, or a desire to cause pain through causing remorse or grief. Multiple motives are common.

I replaced 'post-death oversight' with 'a need for change from an unbearable situation'

Perhaps someone who understands can clarify 'post-death oversight' and replace it if necessary -- sannse 10:03 Apr 6, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't know if it's the same, but that makes a lot more sense (and I was wondering why this `obvious' reason wasn't mentioned). -- S

Speculating wildly, "post-death oversight" might be the ability, claimed in some religions, of the dead to "look down" on the Earth and watch it. Martin

I think there are 2 interesting questions about suicide - whether it is immoral, and whether it is irrational. This article seems to be focusing on the first at the moment. Perhaps I'll add something on the latter debate if I can... --Evercat

Am I the only one who feels like this article practically comes across as being pro-suicide?

Does it? I thought it was very anti- till I added the pro-choice argument. Evercat 19:52 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I removed a how-to link, I think this needs discussion before it is included. We have a pro-choice link, I feel that's enough. I'm uncomfortable about suicide instructions being included in the article, even just as a link. -- sannse 16:39, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

well it's hardly rocket science! -- Tarquin 16:44, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

True. I'm not saying "hide all the information - then no one will know how to do it <evil snigger>", I'm just not convinced that it is an appropriate link for the article. On the other hand I have a lot of POV issues here - so don't feel qualified for any real decisions. -- sannse 01:56, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Which states is it illeagal, and where was this information found? Has anyone found a reference? I cannot

- Catskull

I just walked past this link [4][5] .. I think the view of gender / sexuality relation in general should be part of the article as sexuality is a major human drive / regulation form. --Ebricca 10:00, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Editing Princess Diana, I've added this bit of research:

During the four weeks following her funeral, the overall suicide rate in England and Wales rose by 17%, compared with the average reported for that period in the four previous years. Researchers suggest that this was caused by the 'identification' effect, as the greatest increase in people taking their own lives was in people most similar to Diana: women aged 25 to 44, whose suicide rate increased by over 45%. (Source: [6], British Journal of Psychiatry 2000;177:469-72)

I intended to wikify 'identification', but I can't find a page explaining this effect. (The effect is: when someone famous kills themselves, members of the public most similar to the celebrity - in age, gender, etc - show an increased tendency to suicide).

But I can't find anything on wikipedia - identification is about a different meaning.

I thought that maybe it was listed under a technical term - anyone got any ideas?

If it's not in Wikipedia already, perhaps it would make a useful addition to the suicide article.

Best, --257.47b.9½.-19 18:20, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The closest thing I can think of are Copycat suicides, which are not at all the same thing. Morwen 18:22, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Morwen! That does look like the same thing to me - or at least, it'll do for the moment. Best, --257.47b.9½.-19 18:32, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Although on further thought I see what you mean about it not being the same thing - since she didn't actually kill herself. Some parasuicides earlier though. --257.47b.9½.-19 18:36, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't know what I was thinking. Well, OK, I do. I was thinking about how I had no place I felt I belonged; how no matter where I went, there were people there that already knew each other, that had history together. And I didn't.

So, I typed delete, twice, and my character was no more.

You might think it sounds silly to get upset over deleting a character on a MUD, unless perhaps you've had the good fortune to play one that was more community than game, where your main character is more than just a character, it's you. (Actual role-playing can hinder this experience because it dissociates you somewhat, you're playing make-believe.)

Deleting such a character is like deleting a part of yourself. I cried.

I'm not sure what I'd have done later if I hadn't received an enormous influx of e-mail and ICQ messages. I had to turn my speakers off to better wallow in my grief without the self-pity-inhibiting, silly 'uh-oh' sounds. Later on, I would be touched by the number of people who cared, who understood that there was more to 'delete' than a pfile.

Of course, if I was honest with myself, I'd admit that that was what I wanted:

Attention! Hey, look at me, I'm making an ass of myself because I'm depressed! Prove to me that you care? Please?

After a while, I turned my speakers back on and let myself be talked into coming back to life. I even got my character undeleted. Before you know it, things were just about back to normal. My temporary lapse in judgement was forgiven, and I even started to feel better about myself. That place I had wanted, where I had history, where I was a part of the "old school" club, was right there all the time. I had let some of the players' shared experiences undermine my own feeling of belonging.

The point I'm working towards is this: there is no undelete in real life.

"the threat of widespread war is always associated with a steep fall in suicides" (emphasis mine)

seems a bit odd. any references? Goodralph 00:45, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Rephrased - it goes down during wartime, not due to the 'threat' of war. See [7] for example.

It's becoming seen as good practice (some might call it unnecessary political correctness, though I disagree) to avoid using the phrase "commit suicide". This is on the grounds that it puts suicide on a par with criminal acts - you commit murder, commit rape, etc. There are any number of other ways it can be put - take one's own life, die by suicide, etc. This is recommended by, for example, Samaritans. I'm proposing to edit this article to avoid using the phrase, "commit suicide", except where (a) it's specifically used in relation to suicide as a criminal act, or an act condemned or forbidden by religion, or (b) it would make the language unwieldy or awkward. What does anyone reckon? --ALargeElk 11:20, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

On the "be bold" principle I decided just to go ahead and do this, but if anyone seriously disagrees, please feel free to change it back and we'll talk it out here. --ALargeElk 11:53, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

It has been re-reverted by an anonymous user... Goodralph 05:48, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think it was just an attempt to avoid the horribly clunky use of "to suicide" as a verb. I've rephrased it all a bit, and also changed some sections that said things like, "men kill themselves four times more often than women". Er, no, they don't. Each of them only does it once. What was meant, and what it now says, is that the suicide rate among men is four times higher than among women.-- ALargeElk | Talk 09:30, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I removed this section:

If You are Considering Suicide, or Know Someone Who Is

- In the event that you are seriously considering suicide, or know someone who is, it is important that you seek help right away. This is especially true if the means (weapons, drugs, or other methods) are available, or if a detailed plan is in place.

- Having suicidal desires does not mean that you or the other person actually wants to die. Often times, suicide is seen as a way of releiving pain, or as an only solution to a problem. Doctors and other professionals can help.

- If you or the other person is serious about suicide, you or the other person should go to the nearest Emergency Room, or call 911 immediately. Severe suicidal ideation is a condition that requires immeidate emergency medical treatment.

To me, it doesn't seem to fit - the "self-help" tone is all wrong for Wikipedia. Perhaps it could be rewritten into something more encyclopaedic, but I'm not sure how. --ALargeElk 08:42, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I have rewritten that section from a different POV, to be more factual in tone, whilst keeping the essential content. -- The Anome 08:53, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I've cut it a bit and moved it as a subsection of suicide prevention. --ALargeElk 09:02, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

The medical tone is also a bit weird. It is true that suicide is claimed as a medical problem by some, but it is approached from a number of other angles as well---it might be a philosophical issue, or a religious issue, or some other issue. This shouldn't read like a medical handbook, and section titles like "epedemiology" are inappropriate, because they presuppose that suicide is a disease of sorts, which is an open question according to many philosophers. --Delirium 09:09, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

To motivate my viewpoint on this: this article ought to be as acceptable to a philosopher as to a psychologist. Right now it is not using terminology that philosophers use (certainly nothing Albert Camus would have used), but almost exclusively medical jargon, which isn't really appropriate for a general encyclopedia, unless that were moved to something like Medical views of suicide. --Delirium 09:15, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

All very true - it hadn't occurred to me, but you're right that opening with "epidemiology" is all wrong. It needs a fairly major reorganisation/rewrite and possibly splitting into extra pages. Grrr - wish I had time to do it. It's really unwikipedialike of me to say, "yes this should be done" and then expect someone else to do it. --ALargeElk 08:46, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

The PRC's oppression of Tibetans and their religion is not allegation: It's actual fact. To call it merely allegation is to show bias in favour of one of the world's most deplorable regimes. (Castro's just a clown compared to the Chicons (as a social democrat, I won't call them anything leftist). The Saudis and DRKers are worse though.)

I do not know what was in the mind of people who have committed suidide. People judge others who contemplate suicide as irrational and not of sound mind. In my own mind....I am never irrational. In my mind....it is the people who dont understand and the people who continue to make assumptions who are irrational. But you are not in my mind....so how can you understand. You can never truly understand me so why bother you with what would seem to you a scramble of emotions and conclusions.....but then why bother with life at all.....i will try.....continue.....

There is one thing I do for others. I dont get thanked for it, because its so common...people just take it for granted. Do you know what it is? I will tell you. Its living. Which may be why to others I seem fine and normal....and the next day something happends.....something not right...something snaps and living starts becoming a present you cant afford to give. But what else can one do but continue....struggling, quietly.

People who consider suicide either ask for acknowledgment or at least in wanting quietly. There is a difference between wanting people to know and letting people know. One may want people to know and do everything in thier power to hide it, to not hurt others.....these ones suffer silently. The others demand attention....i suppose at least they get it when they finally decide to give in.

'They take the easy way out'......I used to be one of these people. But perhaps living is for people who can't hack dying. Who knows...but I can assure you....losing the will to live permanently is not an easy thing at all. Taking your existance away is not easy....it is the hardest most final decision one can make.

But while you read this....you may think...'this guy is an idiot', 'he just wants attention'. Maybe, but perhaps understanding is closer to home.....but if I can't make you understand then why bother........why bother with the living.....

I will continue.....for the moment.....

famous listing

I think the few names mentioned here are inadequate. If there is not already a listing of famous suicides, I propose there is.

In the interim I added Yukio Mishima to the list as his death was a protest-suicide.

I suggest we have the individual name, dates, and breif description of means of death if available, including if it a suspected, confirmed, or falsified suicide.

ie: Yukio Mishima (1925 - 1970) Seppuku as a form of protest

Vincent VanGogh (1853 - 1890) Self-inflected gunshot to chest

--Duemellon 13:11, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There is already a list of famous suicides. -- wshun 13:15, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I question the section about the Christian attitude towards suicide. First of all, at least a component of the Catholic objection to suicide is certainly the inherent sacredness of life. This article can be read to imply that this is not so. Secondly, Catholics also recognize that psychological circumstances can mitigate the sinfulness of suicide. From the Catechism: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."(2282) Finally, it is also recognized by the Church that God can forgive suicide. Again, from the Catechism: "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives."(2283) This article seems to imply that the Church does not recognize salvation for those that have taken their own life, since this belief is ascribed to "liberal Christians." I hope that I am not splitting hairs here; I just think this section is somewhat misleading.

I agree with your analysis based on what I know. Do you want to correct the article to remove inaccuracies?

Acegikmo1 08:33, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)