Talk:Robert Moses

He also had an influence in Baltimore

An article today, 3/29/16, in the WAshington Post talked about his influence in Baltimore. A quick google search verifies that he did have some effect but this is not mentioned in this article. somebody should write it up.Conscientia (talk) 16:24, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

The fact that he was one of the most corrupt people of all time isn't even mentioned???

Gore Vidal wrote a long expose of Robert Moses, who enriched himself to the tune of millions by committing fraud on an unprecedented scale, unprecedented even for NYC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.127.51 (talk) 05:55, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Tangentially Related Info

Robert Moses drafted an off-the-shelf freeway plan for Portland, Oregon which was never implemented. He did the same for countless cities in the US. In the 1940s, EVERYONE had a Moses plan.

Who's pimping Portland? What (presumably) PSU student keeps inserting irrelevant quotes regarding PDX into these articles? (Moses and others). Case in point: "...and has since begun to be reversed to an extent in some locales by careful, planned steps by the government, private sector, and people alike. (Nowhere is this more evident than Portland, Oregon)."

I'm sorry. A proper discussion of Moses includes his stomping grounds (NYC and surrounding environs), his effects on the larger region (NE), and the country and world at large (US, North America). Portland has, to be crass, jack shit to do with him.

I am removing these references.

---N - Tacoma, WA

Someone added a claim Moses originated the practice of "redlining". As this was a concept that started in the banking industry and insurance industries it seems unlikely, I'm unfamiliar with the claim, and there's no cite for authorities

Old comments

This is a nice first cut at a Moses bio, and certainly briefer than Caro. But is "evil genius" neutral point of view? Moses certainly didn't consider himself evil. Clearly some of his ideas were of his time, and have been later viewed as mistaken (urban freeways), but the construction of parks, bridges, playgrounds and houses are rarely the works of evil men. Might want to consider NPOVing this up. dml

the 1964 World's Fair probably needs a mention too. -- Someone else 03:56, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think I've improved the viewpoint a little. But I'm not at all sure I can be fair to Robert Moses. Along with the World's Fair, we should probably add the attempted highway across Chinatown, and the deliberate building of overpasses on the Southern State Parkway too low for buses, to keep the working class out of Jones Beach. Vicki Rosenzweig

I suggest removing 'evil genius'. It is apparent enough from the article the type of man he was, especially in the summary at the end. -- Viajero 19:58, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I bit the bullet and removed it, mostly cause the "comment" markup was wrong, but also because being "evil" and being a "genius" is not sufficient to make one an "evil genius": for that you must also plot to take over the world <evil cackle!> -- Someone else 04:16, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

>>> Moses issued orders to demolish the old Penn Station in 1964. No he didn't. This was owned by the Pennsylvania railroad and it was losing money, so they decided to build Madison Square garden on the site to make more money!

Did Moses have anything to do with the WTC towers? I feel like there's at least a peripheral connection. Should that be mentioned? jengod 20:57, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

It might help the objectivity of this article of "accomplishments" were not put in sarcastic quotation marks. Yes, it is evident that Moses had ulterior motives as well as obvious racist sentiments, but remember first that these sentiments were far from uncommon in those times, and also despite any negative views he held, his contribution to the city did radically change the face of the region, as well as the socio-economic structure. Objectively talking about the effects and his possible motives for certain actions is fine, but a good scholar does not make his antipathy toward a subject evident in his writing. It might help to seperate this article into biographical information (ideology, background, etc) and professional information(what/how/when and its effects on the city/nation as a whole). --Firelily17:31 EST 01 May 2005

Moses and Twin Towers

Moses had little to do w/ the WTC. Jameson Doig, in his history of the Port Authority, Empire on the Hudson, does not mention Moses in the context of the Twin Towers.

Non-governmental people who were involved w/ the TWin Towers were David Rockefeller and Austin Tobin.

The World Trade Center was a project undertaken by the Port Authority under the supervision of then Governor Rockefeller. By the time the project was in planning stages, Moses had lost much of his power and influence.

Long Island

Moses is certainly honored on Long Island; whether this reaches the level of "adoration" is probably a little too POV. I'd suggest "widely honored" or the like, but will leave it for now and not be bold until the last contributor/editor has another swipe at it.

Rlquall 06:15, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

there's a r moses pkwy near niagara falls, too. - Omegatron 04:21, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

Miles of freeway?

"Los Angeles is considered the "freeway city", but the New York Metro Area (New York + Northeastern New Jersey) actually has more miles of highway." Is there a source for this? How is this computed? What's definied as the metro areas? Of course the NYC area has more miles than LA proper, which is what a strict reading would say. I've commented out this line. --SPUI (talk) 13:23, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It came from The Power Broker. I won't be able to remember the pg, but I'm sure Caro gave that statistic.Dinopup 18:58, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Indeed it did come from "The Power Broker": page 940 of my edition, in the chapter "Point of No Return." Here's the quote: "In 1964, when Robert Moses completed his major highway building, there were completed or well under way in the New York metropolitan region 899 miles of such highways -- 627 built by him .... No other metropolitan region in America possessed 700 miles of such highways. No other metropolitan region possessed 600 miles -- or 500. Even Los Angeles ... possessed in 1964 only 459 miles of such highways." I checked the end notes, and although they are extensive, I can find no source for Caro's numbers.02:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

These figures have changed somewhat in the forty years since Caro published his biography. The Los Angeles metropolitan area has sprawled out into the surrounding counties, stimulating the building of many new freeways, roads, and even some toll-ways.

--I think Caro was emphasizing this in order to bring home a point. In reality, absolute numbers mean very little. What would be relevent is showing highway miles per capita, which I'm sure LA would beat out NY on in a heartbeat. Also, I don't see why NJ should be included when talking about Moses' influence, since he had nothing to do with any of those. --Jleon 22:56, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, he had plenty to do with those highways in NJ -- at least according to Caro. I replaced the relevant sentence with an ellipses in my quote above, and now I've returned the book to the library. However, if I remember correctly, Caro wrote that the Port Authority of NJ and Robert Moses made a deal whereby Authority money would go to Moses' highway and bridge projects in NY and NJ. The Authority was afraid that the NJ state legislature was going to force it to use its sizable savings to improve the railroads and public transit, but the Authority knew it would make more money from toll-paying bridges and highways. However, it lacked the vision and expertise to build those bridges and highways, so it had Moses do it for them.--Adamzs 01:48, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

--Moses certianly made his share of deals with the Port Authority, and one could even argue that his influence was a major source of inspiration behind many of NJ's highway projects. However, Moses simply never had a direct hand in any highway building projects in NJ, or in any other state besides NY, for that matter. I've read Caro too, of course, and I'd love to know what pages you are referring to when you say that highway construction in NJ was ever ceded over to Moses. --Jleon 17:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This discussion is old - but Moses had a hand in designing the route for the Palisades Interstate Parkway, which passes through New Jersey (but was designed to bring New Yorkers to the Palisades Interstate Park). As far as I know, that is the only highway Moses was involved in building in New Jersey. Darkcore 20:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

The first paragraph of this article definitely needs to be NPOV'd, big time. While I personally am not a fan of displacing neighborhoods for freeways or excessive "auto-oriented" urban development, the article's introduction is no more than an opinionated criticism with a birthdate. Somebody please change this!

Feel free. It's hard to say that his "mistakes" is NPOV, any more than his alleged "adoration" on Long Island is, but it's hard not to see some of his freeway projects as a mistake. What the article needs to say is that some of his projects are now considered to have been mistakes by many informed observers and then sources for this cited, and also to source just who his Long Island "adorers" are. If you can do this, you should. Rlquall 04:46, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have re-worked the opening paragraph. While it is not perfect, I think it neutralizes the paragraph enough to remove the NPOV template from the article. Anyone that wants to clean it up more, feel free. K1vsr 21:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nice job K1vsr with the opening paragraph. It is quite neutral now. The next paragraph needs significant work. In particular: "Never elected to public office ... without having to answer to the general public or to elected officials ... responsible for 90% of the state's debt" I feel like it would be better to describe what he actually did first and then get into the controversial details. Also, the current debt of the state shouldn't be in his introduction paragraph! I think whoever started this section hit the nail on the head with his criticism. Lets fix this! (note I have added the POV tag to the article) Lansey (talk) 16:33, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

One of the most significant facts about Moses was that he was not a politician. Our experience today is of years of public meetings, debate, and repeated plebiscites before every major infrastructure project. Not to mention environmental impact statements and endless rounds of lawsuits. That one man, unelected, could build so much, with other people's money, with so little standing in his way is what makes him unique, and utterly unfamiliar to the modern citizen. New York state's debt structure is equally unique, and is as much a legacy of Moses as the infrastructure he built, and will probably outlast most of the physical structures. By all means, rephrase it to be as neutral as you can, but the facts themselves deserve mention in the lead. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:24, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Redirect

It is simiply a matter of Wikistyle to eliminate redirects in blue links whenever possible. It is not a matter of endorsing the Dodgers' move to LA or not! Rlquall 00:23, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Unclear paragraph

This paragraph is unclear, not to mention poorly written:

"Because of this, however, those aspiring city planners, landscape architects, designers and all manner of civil engineers know what not to do in terms of designing causeways and parks. There should (at least in a city planning spectrum) not be bias towards corporate or otherwise higher-class citizens, as he showed in the planning of Central Park. There should be shown interest and great care when dealing with already existing neighborhoods in planning and design—especially in reference to the lower class. And lastly, but certainly not leastly, planners need to discern what place is the automobile's and what place is designated the person's. This conflict, above all, did Moses epitomize, with his many beltway projects. He made driving enjoyable, and thus spurred on the use of the automobile (not that its use would have died out without Moses' contributions)."

And what is the deal with "higher class" vs. "lower class"? Is this article a sociological study in urban planning? I will try and have a crack at it...Marlowe

JP Morgan

_{The following comment was originally posted alone at the top of this page, I have moved it here. -Lanoitarus ^(talk) .:. 08:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)} J.P. Morgan died in 1913. What's the source for his reference here? -- Mike Schiraldi 01:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

• Its pretty much public record, the parkways in long island follow a large circle path to avoid these estates. The most detailed source would be Caro's book, but its also a matter of public record. -Lanoitarus _^(talk) .:. 08:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

• • It's also a known fact that the residents of Old Westbury and East Hills forced Moses to avoid that area, and later claimed he was discriminating against them by not building the road through their communities; Something he didn't do when he built the Long Island Expressway. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 15:22, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Long Island Motor Parkway

A neutral article would also assign the blame on the destruction of the Long Island Motor Parkway to Moses.

Comment

I see any effort to compare Moses's efforts favorably with current developnent disasters (i.e. Ground Zero and the Big Dig) is deemed "NPOV". Is wikipedia a digital Pravda? I'm sure if we just wanted to reprint Caro's book we could simply ask for copyright permission, why engage in indepednent thought or reasoning —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.9.141.171 (talk • contribs) .

Wikipedia is not a place to add your own opinions (see WP:OR), if You find such comparisons from newspapers etc. then You are welcome to add them (linking to the source). Thanks, feydey 19:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

In respose to critiques herein I linked to a recent op-ed about the Big Dig making the point it was lacking vision in its construction and planning, and attributing my statement re: the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge to the webmaster at NYCroads, which I already had cited.

Frankly, NYC's fiasco re: Ground Zero redevelopment reaches the "common knowledge" level.. re: cites...where to start? Isn;t a large hole in the ground rather self-evident?

Where the heck did you get the idea that Wikipedia is a place for indepedent thought or reasoning, or for propagation of "common knowledge"? Please consult Wikipedia policy and conform your edits to that. -- 71.102.194.130 08:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

UN?

The opening of the article says that Moses was responsible for the UN being built in NY rather than DC. Could we get a citation or some more details? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.172.169.21 (talk • contribs) .

--Robert Caro mentions it in the Powerbroker. p.771-5. Moses didn't get it built but he had a huge influence in coordinating resources to get it done. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.106.111.182 (talk • contribs).

--I added a citation needed tag for the above mentioned assertion (now in paragraph 3). The Caro citation listed above isn't enough, because it doesn't specify what Moses's role was vs. William Zeckendorf and John_D._Rockefeller,_Jr.. It's a complicated question, but I think we should try to get it right.Fixifex (talk) 17:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Long Island "landlocked"

[...] leaving densely populated Long Island landlocked may not have been an optimal policy decision [...]

There must be a better word as Long Island is the opposite of landlocked. Lent 04:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

How about isolated? Thesilence 20:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Are we jumping the gun here?

Three major exhibits in 2007 helped rehabilitate his image among intellectuals, as they realized the magnitude of his achievements. These exhibits haven't even opened yet, how have they already rehabilitated his image? Pdxstreetcar 03:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC) (and I'm not the same Portland poster mentioned below)

we are telling users what the New York Times reported. The decision of curators and experts at three major museums in NYC, bolstered by interviews, is the "rehabilitation," not how many people eventually look at the exhibits. Rjensen 11:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Brooklyn Battery Bridge

I notice a change from saying the Navy vetoed the bridge, to the War Department (Army). So, which one had the say so, at that time? Today it would be the Army. Jim.henderson 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Caro, p. 674, notes that Secretary of War Woodring, acting for Army Corps of Engineers, veoted the bridge because it was "seaward of a vital Navy establishment.". So I suppose it could be both. Sammons58 00:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. So, the correction is correct, since legally speaking it was indeed an Army job to protect the Navy from undue development endangering navigation. My guess is, this has been the law for at least the entire 20th century, though of course one could expect interdeparmental cooperation in an interservice matter. And, in this case, the power was abused for a political purpose. Or, from a conservative point of view, the military establishment was wisely used to block excessive civic progress. Whatever spin is preferred. Jim.henderson 04:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

nelected public transit or hostile towards it?

It might seem like a nit, but I would argue that this current phrase doesn't go far enough: "the decline of public transport through disinvestment and neglect." Moses didn't just neglect public transit, he was actively hostile towards it (e.g. he called for low overpasses on the parkways to make sure no one tried running busses on them later). -- Doom 05:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Where was this? I've heard it said of Jones Beach, but when I bicycle to that park I have to dodge buses. See the article Jones Beach. Was it some other parkway? Jim.henderson 07:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

My source on that is a remark in "The Last Intellectuals" by Russel Jacoby. I would be very surprised if Jacoby wasn't using the Caro book as a source. I'll check that when I can. Myself, I don't remember ever seeing a bus on the Northern State Parkway. -- Doom 20:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, a basic part of the theory of a "parkway" is that it's for non commercial traffic, with no big vehicles detracting from a pleasure drive in a family car. NSP, Palisades, Taconic, and other parkways were bigger than 19th century ones, but still operated on that theory. And indeed I think they still operate that way, Moses or no Moses, overpasses or no overpasses. Jones Beach of course is an exception, since all roads there are nominally Parkways and if the theory were fully followed then trucks wouldn't bring in food and lumber for the boardwalk. So, to say Moses was a bad administrator of parks because he stuck with the theory of the parkway as far as practical, well, so does pretty near everyone who does anything with parks. Jim.henderson 17:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The claim that this is "a basic part of the theory" is ad hoc and POV. And no one has said Moses was a bad administrator -- that's quite a strawman. The argument -- based on evidence -- is that Moses' policies were deliberate and effective means of blocking access to the poor. -- 71.102.194.130 08:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

One of the reasons for the decline of public transit in NYC was the city following WWII was under political pressure to keep the subway fare too low to justify reinvestment into new lines and equipment. Moses had the ability to charge "what the traffic would bear" on his toll bridges, hence had the funds to spend on new roads. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.52.14 (talk) 13:38, February 10, 2007

Moses actively blocked public transportation, not just by the low bridges (on multiple parkways), but by refusing to included rights-of-way for rail in any of his roadway takings, when simply setting aside the land as part of that process would have made such an option viable, even if he didn't have to provide the funds for construction. He prodded the city of New York into doubling transit fares in the early 1950s, in order to reallocate million of city bonding capacity to building roads instead of subway improvements. It's not an isolated incident, and it's not just setting other priorities. He worked against public transit throughout his career, and the pattern is well documented in Caro. Moses was in the toll business, not the trainfare business.

And yet lines like the IND Fulton Street Line and IND Queens Boulevard Line were still extended, and the IND Rockaway Line took over the burned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch. He never blocked any of those. The Chrystie Street Connection was built with no interference from Moses. Also, he advocated that the portion of the Rockaway Beach Branch north of Ozone Park should be converted into a subway line. Doesn't sound like he was as hell-bent on working against mass transit to me. Just in favor of drivers. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 05:01, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Page references

There are evidently a number of different editions of Robert Caro's biography Powerbroker, with differing page numbers. The NYT 1981 Moses obituary gives it as 1246 pages. The current Amazon editions list the hardcover at 1336 pages and the paperback at 1344 pages. So for accuracy, comments on page number should list which edition is being used. --Blainster 17:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The page number inconsistency is problematic, because it is completely inadequate to reference a claim by saying that it appears somewhere in the more than 1000 pages of Caro's massive biography. Page numbers, or chapter and section numbers, or some other scheme are needed to allow references to be verified. How is this situation handled in similar cases, where there are multiple editions of a reference work? Reify-tech (talk) 14:34, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Cold water

"He claimed that he could keep African Americans from using pools in white neighborhoods by making the water too cold"

Is this a paraphrase? The term "African Americans" would seem to apply to an era after Moses was active in this field. Is there a more direct quote? Jim.henderson 01:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyone familiar with the English language knows that "he claimed that", and no quote marks, indicates a paraphrase. -- 71.102.194.130 08:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

From p.513 of The Power Broker (1246 page edition): "Moses built one pool in Harlem ... and he was determined that that was going to be the only pool that Negroes ... were going to use. He didn't want them "mixing" with white people in other pools, in part because he was afraid, probably with cause, that "trouble" - fights and riots - would result; in part because, as one of his aides put it, 'Well you know how RM felt about colored people.'" From p.514: "To discourage "colored" people from using the Thomas Jefferson Pool, Moses ... employeed only white lifeguards and attendants. ...he took another precaution. Corporation Counsel Windels was astonished at its simplicity. "We [Moses and I] were driving around Harlem one afternoon ... and I said, 'Don't you have this problem with the Negroes overrunning you?' He said, 'Well, they don't like cold water and we've found that that helps.'" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charcast (talk • contribs) 04:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Where'd Moses grow up?

Currently, the article states, “He grew up in the Dwight Street area of New Haven.” However, I have a source (a Newsday article) that says this: “Moses grew up in New York City, where the family lived on East 46th Street, just off Fifth Avenue” source I’m going to replace the Dwight Street thing with this, because at least this statement is sourced. —BrOnXbOmBr21 10:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, they are both true. The Moses family moved to 83 Dwight Street in New Haven in 1886, Robert was born in 1888, and lived there until 1897, when Bella moved the family from Connecticut to their place on East 46th Street. So since he spent the first 9 years of his life in New Haven, it's safe to say he grew up there as much as he grew up in NYC. This is in Caro's book, so I'll be sure to source it as well as leave your Newsday reference. CraigyMack 04:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Ironic that the block where his New Haven house at 83 Dwight Street stood was cleared for the Route 34 Connector which was never built as planned. Is now the low income housing George Street Apartments built in 1973. But the checking maps of the area may be considered as original research. Colonial Computer 17:48, 30 July 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22yearswothanks (talk • contribs)

Interesting Fellow

I enjoyed this article. UnclePaco 04:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and an interesting article too! Good writing! Better hope Wiki doesn't find it, they think that means: "unencyclopedic," — it's supposed to be dry & dusty. I particularly enjoyed the values which put, "greatest proportion of public benefit corporations," up front.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:E454:D78D:E92F:E1E6 (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Doubtful allegations of racism in regard to Long Island bridges

The article, referencing Robert Caro, claims that “low overpasses on parkways were made purposely too low for buses to clear . . . to prevent the poor and racial minorities (largely dependent on public transit) from accessing the beach, while providing easy car access for wealthier white groups” as if this were fact. Actually, while Moses’ racial views might remain controversial, this allegation, which originates (chiefly) with Langdon Winners whom Robert Caro cites in his book, has been thoroughly debunked by Bernward Joerges in his essay Do Politics Have Artefacts? (1999). On page 8, for instance, he writes that “at the time of the parkway building (beginning 1924), Long Island was already considerably well developed in terms of transport. The Manhattan-Long Island railway operated since 1877, and a rather dense system of ordinary roads was in place, parallel and across the parkways. The Long Island Expressway, a true Autobahn intended to relieve traffic congestion on the Island, was built by Moses alongside the Parkways.” Hence, as a segregational measure, those bridges would be utterly ineffectual. Joerges goes on to give multiple reasons for those bridge’s nature, referring, for example, to engineers who explain “that commercial traffic was excluded from the parkways anyway; and that the generally good transport situation on Long Island forbade the very considerable cost of raising the bridges. In other words, Caro and Winner don’t know what they are talking about.” —Telofy (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

That whole section (#Legacy and lasting impact) reads like an essay (using rhetorical questions and basically advancing the editor's opinion) so I stuck {{essay-like}}. As you are familiar with the subject, please try to clean it up. Adding this counter-argument is important to the article's neutral point of view, as it currently blatantly pushes Winner's thesis for a large part of that section. -M.Nelson (talk) 17:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Done. I cleaned it up as well as I could and fixed a few typographic issues. If you think it’s still essay-like, please put that template back up. —Telofy (talk) 18:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Having read the Joerges article, I feel that "throughly refuted" is much too strong. Changing it to "disputed" will do trick, and will let readers decide for themselves whether his argument is convincing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.215.101.254 (talk) 20:33, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't get it

I read about three screens and I still don't understand what was this man's job. It seems he wasn't mayor, nor governor. Whatever he was, it should be explained in the first paragraph of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.41.197.108 (talk) 20:41, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I added a paragraph to the lead which explains what he actually did -- which was to create and run public authorities. But the question "Who was this guy and how did he hold so much power?" is the central conundrum of Moses and the very thing that made him remarkable. The precise answer to the question is complicated and subject to some dispute--Dbratland (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC).

I still don't see what was his job. "Mastermind" works for somebody who did his work by occupying a series of positions. E.g., Einstein was a patent examiner; later he became a student, a lecturer, a professor and so on. And even for Einstein, you could still say, in one phrase, "he was a physicist". Maybe you know Moses well, but I (and many others) don't and don't want to know more than needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.41.197.108 (talk) 19:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

If you insist you have to be given a simple phrase that tells us what his "job" was, you're missing the point. Moses was part of a generation of leaders who wielded enormous power through unconventional and (allegedly) illegal or corrupt means. He often issued marching orders to politicians who technically were above him the the job hierarchy, yet how had to obey because of Moses's informal network of favors, patronage, threats and blackmail. It's complicated.

One key is to follow the link to "Public authority" aka Public-benefit corporation and to New York state public-benefit corporations. They are strange, quasi-governmental entities that are a part of everyday life in New York yet alien to many outside that state. He started with the Triborough Bridge Authority over which he held "tight control". On paper his job title was merely Chairman of the Board of that Authority, but in fact he was much more.

If Wikipedia tried to dumb all that complexity down into a simple "job title", it would mislead the reader. It's like saying electric current works just like water flowing through a pipe: sure, it's simple and easy to say, but actually it's false. If the reader of this article is left scratching their head at the mystery of what Moses did, that's good, because that means they are starting to get it. Moses was something of a mystery, and experts disagree about him. As Albert Einstein said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." --Dbratland (talk) 21:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The article needs a simple phrase that tells us what his job was, in the introduction. (And yes, electric current does behave just like water flowing through a pipe. The equations are interchangeable.)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.224.64.200 (talk) 14:02, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I guess you didn't read all the way down to Limits of the analogy. If you've got a source that states what his job was, cite it. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 14:56, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe the appropriate term would be "infrastructure czar" Noamthinks (talk) 03:08, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Unsourced Material

Below sections contained or consisted of unsourced material that had been tagged long-term. Please feel free to reincorporate this material into the article with proper referencing. Doniago (talk) 13:10, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Influence

==Influence== At one time, one quarter of Federal construction dollars were being spent in New York, and Moses had 80,000 people working under him. Although he built playgrounds in vast numbers, almost none of those were located in Harlem. Similarly, the main aesthetic achievements of Riverside Drive and associated amenities were located south of 125th Street, and a pattern of barriers to access for non-white citizens, whether steep stairs or busy highways, appears repeatedly in his public projects. Close associates of Moses claimed that they could keep African Americans from using pools in white neighborhoods by making the water too cold. He actively precluded the use of public transit that would have allowed the non-car-owners to enjoy the elaborate recreation facilities he built. After much litigation by private landowners, his highway projects on Long Island followed a circuitous path so as not to cross the properties of wealthy landowners such as J. P. Morgan, Jr., while those same highways demolished numerous working class neighborhoods throughout New York City. During the Depression, however, Moses, along with Mayor Fiorello H. La Guardia, was responsible for the construction of ten gigantic pools under the WPA Program. Combined, they could accommodate 66,000 swimmers. This extensive social works program is sometimes attributed to the fact that Moses was an avid swimmer himself. One such pool is McCarren Park Pool in Brooklyn, formerly dry and used only for special cultural events but now undergoing reconstruction. Moses persuaded Governor Smith and the government of New York City to allow him to hold state and the city governments jobs simultaneously; at one point, he had twelve separate titles, maintaining four palatial offices across the city and Long Island, and actually holding control of all federal appropriations to New York City. For the city, he was Parks Commissioner, and for the state, he was President of the Long Island State Park Commission and Secretary of State of New York (1927–1928), as well as Chairman of the New York State Power Commission, responsible for building hydro-electric dams in the Niagara/St. Lawrence region. During the 1920s, Moses sparred with Franklin D. Roosevelt, then head of the Taconic State Park Commission, who favored the prompt construction of a parkway through the Hudson Valley. Moses succeeded in diverting funds to his Long Island parkway projects (the Northern State Parkway, the Southern State Parkway and the Wantagh State Parkway), although the Taconic State Parkway was later completed as well. Moses is frequently given credit as the father of the New York State Parkway System from these projects. As the head of many public authorities, Moses's title as chairman gave his entities the flexibility associated with private enterprise, along with the tax-exempt debt capacity associated with government agencies. The inner workings of the authorities were free from public scrutiny, allowing money to be freely allocated to expenses public scrutiny could not have sustained. Contrary to his public image, Moses horse-traded and dealt out patronage extensively, building support from construction firms, investment banks, insurance companies, labor unions (and management), and real-estate developers. Calling on these vast reserves of power, Moses quickly developed a reputation for "getting things done" and used his influence to fast-track projects in legislators' home districts, a tactic for which these same lawmakers repaid him by granting money for ever more ambitious projects. He dealt out enough spoils to both political parties to ensure he avoided unwanted attention to his patronage politics. In 1934, he ran on the Republican ticket for Governor of New York, but was routed by the incumbent Democrat Herbert H. Lehman. A measure of how badly he was defeated is seen in that the GOP held one or both houses of the New York state legislature in the period from 1912 to 1964, except in the wake of the Moses landslide defeat.

Reverted peacockery from lead.

I reverted this edit from the lead because it violates WP:PEACOCK. Praising Moses for his ingenuity, creating "infrastructure quickly and efficiently" and "streamlining" the public comment process is a violation of WP:NPOV. Having no public comment whatsoever is not "streamlining", it is "bypassing" and so the word bypassing is kept. Removing the facts that he was unelected, and that NY has a disproportionate number of public benefit corporations is misleading as well. It's important to state the fact that what Moses did was unusual by the standards of how other US states functioned. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:07, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The first paragraph looks OK right now. I would use the next two paragraphs of the lede to describe his career in neutral terms, and perhaps begin the fourth, "Although never elected to public office, Moses had a profound influence .." Something like that.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Perfidious Advertisement

This article constitutes not much else perfidious advertisement for the works of Robert Moses. Criticism is a mere afterthought in this article. He wrecked the lives of 100.000s, a mayor won an election with a campaign promising to put a halt to Moses. Many think, it was Moses' work that helped essentially eroding NYC's tax base so that it ended up nigh bankrupt. These are just a few thoughts on the issue. The usual set of ill willed WP gangsters - not much else they are - seem to be happy to tossing themselves off to the detriment of well researched content. I am just revolted. 121.216.197.134 (talk) 16:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Moses and Subways

This Statement:

His building of expressways hindered the proposed New York City Subway expansion in the 1930s, because the parkways and expressways that were built served, at least to some extent, the purpose of the planned subway lines.

Should be cited to a responsible source or be removed. Caro and other primary-source researchers (to my knowledge) never asserted anything like this.

Assuming the statement means that subway money was limited because of Moses was spending it all (the usual claim), that is a tenuous argument.

In the late 20s / early 1930s Moses was commissioner of the Long Island State Park Commission and spent much of his time building Jones Beach and the South State Parkway -- this was never in competition with the subway system

And while by 1931 Moses was building the Triboro Bridge (that did compete with subways), the Triboro was funded by federal new deal money and loans. Roughly m of the approximately million spent on the bridge was federal (Caro, The Power Broker, pg 387). This Federal money would not be available for the then private IRT or BRT until 1936.

If the statement means that people were uninterested in building subways because roads were already built -- that statement certainly needs support because every subway system on earth was built because surface land was already covered with roads!

There is some evidence that the proliferation of roads may have led to a reduction in fare-revenues, which could be claimed led to losses, which could be claimed led to less construction. But this evidence is from earlier in the century (circa 1915, when cars first become widely available). And the assertion that the drop in fare-revenue led to less subway construction is a big jump that should be cited.

24.90.73.152 (talk) 21:57, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree with this anonymous IP. There were in fact other subway lines built during his time in power between the 1930s and 1960s, in spite of the claims made by Robert Caro. The Culver Ramp wasn't the only one. Just look at the time lines for many of the others. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 04:39, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Strangely formatted "Sources" section

The following was in its own section in the main article. I've never really seen anything like it in other articles, so I'm moving it here for discussion on what to do.

Sources

• "Moses is racist because of his designs where the highway passed through Harlem."
• "That Moses was highhanded, racist and contemptuous of the poor draws no argument even from the most ardent revisionists. But his grand vision and iron will, they say, seeded New York with highways, parks, swimming pools and cultural halls, from the Belt Parkway to Lincoln Center, and thus allowed the modern city to flower."

Comments? LHM^{ask me a question} 06:15, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Post Power-Broker Information...

Is there really no way we can expand the article between the section of Caro's biography and his death? Does no one have any more details of those seven years? That's quite a few years unaccounted for... Nogoodnms (talk) 21:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)Nogoodnms

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Pop culture

In the fourth episode of Amazon's 'Marvelous Mrs Maisel' Midge speaks at a protest for a road Robert Moses wants to build across a park. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:281:C501:3BC9:F1E0:80F0:DE2A:7891 (talk) 18:59, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

That was the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would've not only linked Interstate 78 to some of it's auxiliary routes, but connected to the Bushwick and Nassau Expressways. Actually this aspect of the series was the one thing that turned me off to it. -------User:DanTD (talk) 04:50, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Not sure how to cite this but in the actual play series Dimension20's third season The Unsleeping City, Robert Moses is the BBEG of the campaign where he is reimagined as a lich trying to impose his will on the "American Dream" to be his specific dream. Notably his road system actually form an arcane barrier that dampens certain magical forces and prevents high level beings from Faerie and Hell from entering the city except under special circumstances. 144.51.12.18 (talk) 06:48, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

You'd need an independent source that's discussed it, per WP:IPCV. DonIago (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Possible revisions

I'm considering working on this page to re-organize the information in a helpful manner and expand on Moses' impact on communities of color. People have mentioned his neglect and hostility towards public transit. Moses generally furthered white interests and had a lasting impact on the built environment of NYC which should be acknowledged here. Check out my user page for more info and sources I'd use, and comment on my talk page if you have any questions/comments. Emilyp99 (talk) 23:00, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Opinion offered unsupported by reference

In the "Early life and rise to power" section, the statement is made that "Moses was a great political talent who demonstrated great skill when constructing his roads, bridges, playgrounds, parks, and housing projects." It has a reference, but that reference is an essay titled, "The Myth of the Master Builder: "Robert Moses, New York, and the Dynamics of Metropolitan Development Since World War II" I don't have full access to it, but it seems that the central tenant of that essay is the blurb I say says that his legacy as a master builder is "revisionist" and that "magnify [his] influence".

45.49.174.133 (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2021 (UTC)Greg S

Title I, aka "slum clearance"

There is no mention of Moses' "slum clearance" or Title I program in this article. In my opinion Moses' his displacement of well over 200,000 New Yorkers should be in the opening paragraph. Personally, I see many similarities to the Trail of Tears, but for lower income New Yorkers. This program, and the destruction of lives at Moses' discretion is the main focus of the third volume of The Power Broker.

Here's a good summary of the Title I program and Moses' involvement with it http://www.tenant.net/Community/history/hist04c.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.167.59.8 (talk) 16:37, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

This is an important omission and should indeed be addressed. I'm going to look into this. Not sure if anyone is still super active on this page... Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 12:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Robert Moses

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Robert Moses's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "NYSP_attendance":

• From Heckscher State Park: "State Park Annual Attendance Figures by Facility: Beginning 2003". Data.ny.gov. Retrieved September 1, 2016.
• From Robert Moses State Park – Thousand Islands: "State Park Annual Attendance Figures by Facility: Beginning 2003". Data.ny.gov. Retrieved November 30, 2015.
• From Robert Moses State Park: "State Park Annual Attendance Figures by Facility: Beginning 2003". Data.ny.gov. Retrieved November 20, 2015.
• From Cold Spring Harbor State Park: "State Park Annual Attendance Figures by Facility: Beginning 2003". Data.ny.gov. Retrieved August 9, 2016.
• From Jones Beach State Park: "State Park Annual Attendance Figures by Facility: Beginning 2003". Data.ny.gov. Retrieved March 20, 2021.
• From Belmont Lake State Park: "State Park Annual Attendance Figures by Facility: Beginning 2003". Data.ny.gov. Retrieved March 22, 2021.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 18:07, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

The Power Broker and the Moses Reputation

This paragraph feels odd.

“Moses's reputation declined following the publication of Robert Caro's Pulitzer Prize-winning biography The Power Broker(1974), which cast doubt on the purported benefits of many of Moses's projects and further cast Moses as racist. In large part because of The Power Broker, Moses is today considered a controversial figure in the history of New York City.”

The Power Broker takes several chapters to show how Moses’ public image came to be in decline. While I’d be keen to keep the summary short, additional context might be added to say the Caro biography documented Moses’ fall from grace so as to put the effect of the book into the proper context

174.160.242.40 (talk) 01:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I added in a "citation needed" just a moment ago - to say that Moses' previously-sterling reputation only collapsed because of the book is a serious delusion: the man was controversial well before Caro ever put ink to paper.

The whole article in general reads rather more like a newspaper article than an encyclopedia entry. 195.49.26.35 (talk) 14:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)